Hi there! Our TI3 group is finaly came back alive so we played a couple of games. And after some talk and some discussion over some boardgame forum, we finaly decided to ban The Yssaril Tribe. Some players I've been reading already banned them. This race is just broken. First, they start 2 XRD Carriers with 5 GFs so they can cover a lot and fast. Then you have the ''Skip'' ability which is the most game-changing mechanics ever. You skip as often as you can and then at the end of the turn, you're all alone to play so you can claim pretty much any objective without resistance from the other players. While playing other races, you have to commit yourself(sometimes pretty hard) in order to achieve an Objective. Because anyone can stop you during the turn.
Did I mention you they basicaly draw 2 AC at Status phase and have an Unlimited hand of AC? That's pretty sweet too but its not what makes them so special. And last but rly not least, the ability to check other ppl's hand of AC mixed with their racial ability from Shards of the Throne so they can steal you one. I mean, ''C'mon bro I thought we were friends!''. Those green bastards from outer space are laughing at us! It makes Neural Motivator a much less wanted tech for the other players but it's still a requierment for other neet techs. It gives them control, knowledge and force some AC to be played earlier by fear of losing it from their Racial Ability. The ACs are pretty much the only thing that other players cannot see while playing. So whenever the Yssaril get suspicious about a player's hand, he check it and WHOOPS! there goes my dear ''Sabotage''.

Are there any other TI3 groups that has come to this conclusion?

I've been thinking about ''nerfing'' them like having to pay a Command Counter from Allocation in order to execute your racial. I havent think about how to deal with the ''Skipping'' yet. But for now they are out.

If your group wanted to nerf the action-skipping ability fairly hard you could house rule that they can only skip one action per Action Phase.

Or as an alternate suggestion, every time they skip an action they must discard a random Action Card from their hand. If they have no Action Cards in their hand, then they cannot skip an action.

Kerrin said:

I like that idea. It synergizes nicely with their unlimited hand size for ACs and such (in the sense that they probably won't be too hard up for ACs just because they have to burn one to skip.)

Our group has never felt the need to modify or ban the Yssaril (we acknowlege they're powerful, but they don't come up every game so we're cool.) However, if we ever do decide to do so, I'll keep this idea in mind. Thanks for sharing =)

Yssaril is quite strong in a resource rich galaxy, but very weak in a resource poor galaxy .

Yssaril weakness is

1. Weak ships, no Hylar V or Cybernetics and

2. Weak production capabilities, no Enviro or Sarween tools and poor homeworld.

Give BEREG LIRTA IV to Yssaril as his best double system and Yssaril can buy tech and ships to negate his weakness and become a powerhouse.

Give DAL BOOTHA / XXEHAN to Yssaril as his best double system and Yssaril will be eliminated by round 5.

Give DAL BOOTHA / XXEHAN to Barony, L1Z1x or Hacan as his best double system and these races still might win the game.

Why Yssaril looks so powerful, is everyone likes to play in a high resource galaxy so you never see the weaknesses Yssaril starts with.

I would like to state that im pretty tired about people whining about the Yssaril tribes. You're arguement for their objective stalling is flawed on the premise that simply waiting out everyone gives him free rain of the objectives. It is not necesserily automatic for the Yssaril player to do this. You can simply put him out of the position to claim objectives freely through action cards or a precise attack. the two carriers starting with xrd is very potent, but (as another commenter established) ther low production hinders them from building much during the first turn. Most other teams have something in my opinion,That when used correctly can be equally, if not more powerful than the Yssaril.

And really as a final statement if the Yssaril are kicking your ass every time i'ts more likely that you as an opponent are not potent enough to play against them rather then any "over-powered" advantage brought by their racial abilities and starting posistion

Like in poker often times the best player always wins because everyone assumes they are the best player and they fail to actually try to beat them, so is the case with the Yassiril tribes. Skip all you want, play all the action cards you want, in Twilight Imperium if 2 players get together and decide to crush you, you will be crushed an experiance that Yassiril tribe players often fall victim to. In 5 years of playing this game I have seen the Xxcha win more games than the Yassiril tribe, for the exact oppossite reason with the Xxcha. People assume you aren't a threat and have no chance of winning, that alone opens up the path to victory.

The Yassiril tribes are the strongest race mechanically in the game, which is the worst drawback a race can have at a table of experianced players. I don't care how good you are, the Yassril tribe will never win a game at my table for that very reason. They are good, so it is a group decesion before the galaxy is even built that you must die. Which is exactly why rarely is anyone ballsy enough to even pick them as their race.

Count Jondi said:

Yes, you are right. No race is overpowered, and if you say they, the you are you are just a bad player(and whiny).

The only way surefire way to stop Yssaril with a good player is to jump them early in the game, normally with two races.

Why do you think they changed Winnu's racial tech? Because of the skipping ability.

I would also like to state I'm pretty tired of lame arguments like the above you posted with regards to yssaril.

Bill

Umm…yeah… so, I think that playing with the Lazax in a normal game is NOT over-powered, cause if someone uses them, then we all just team up against them and knock them out of the game. So, that obviously means that they’re not over-powered.

I don’t know guys… just sounds a whole lot like what’s being said here.

I’m the best player in our group, and I know that even though I win almost every time, it would be even easier with the Tribe. I had them once long ago before getting SE. I took warfare 1 and came away from the first round with 6 new planets.

I have no problem with my friends using them, cause it means I’ll have a fight on my hands. But, I won’t use them anymore.

PS- Action cards turn the tide of the game repeatedly throughout. Guess which team has twice as many as everyone else…

Relampagos said:

Well its not exactly so black and white, but ya in a round about way this is what tends to happen in my groups and again I think its fair to say that every group has its own dynamic but with Twilight Imperium a good player (or good group) should be one who is aware of consequences of his/their decesions and strategies and letting a player running tribes or Lazax as in your example go unmolested during the game, ya for sure, by end game they WILL most certainly be in a better position than you to steal the win. Than again isn't that true for any race, or simply a good starting position in the galaxy or even when dealing with a player who has superior skill and experiance? Knowing in advance that you are dealing with a strong race, strong starting position, strong player or anything else you see as a huge advantage over you, allows you to take actions, both mechanically and diplomatically throughout the game (not just at the end where most people seem to often wake up) to ensure that these advantages are not compounded by bad decesions. The goal of a smart player is to find a way to rob them of those advantage through gameplay which in Twilight Imperium SHOULD ALWAYS include diplomatic packs as this always far outweighs any mechanical advantage a player can find.

So ya, thats how you balance Twilight Imperium, through smart gameplay. Sure you can take the "adjustment to the rules route" and my group often does this too, but we do it more for fun than anything else. In the end though what tends to happen is to adjust a race like Tribes and suddenly another one becomes the king of the pact. Than you adjust that one and someone else takes the throne. I have seen plenty of rule changes to this game, some of which have been so elaborate they are practically replacements for the core rules, but in all the years playing the game I have never seen anyone successfully balance it to some conensual perfection. Some certainly have gotten closer than the core rules, but in the end this game has some much complexity and variation that trying to balance it is a lost cause as far as Im concerned. The best way to balance it is by accepting that through gameplay you can take away peoples advantages, and I believe that to be the most fun way to do it as well.

BigKahuna said:

This.

YT is a very 'loud' race, being that everyone knows what you can do, and they will team up against you. Had this happen to me in my last game, and let me tell you it sucks. I had players burning action cards as fast as they could, using all action cards against me (causing me to discard my cards, lose my ability for a round, etc.), and playing very mean policies (the elect two planets to destroy everything on went against me, forcing me to promise a VP just to stay in the game).

The skipping helps, but only for the first round. Then everyone knows you can do it, and they will make sure that you don't get to benefit from it. As someone else mentioned, YT may be able to move fast, but they are horrible in a fight...so any pressure and you are pretty much done. Not to mention your action card abilities are pretty much the lifeblood of the race, and when people take those away, you've got no chance.

So, yeah. I think I'm going to find a 'quieter' race to go with. Granted, I came in second in the last game...yet I'm still pretty sore at all the underhandedness going on towards me just because of fear of the race. It made the game more of a chore than anything.

The same thing would have also happened to you if you played Jolnar or Winnu.

Several races have an implied endgame advantages but are very weak if attacked early.

Very good players have counter strategies for this and know how to squeeze every advantage out of their race.

If you want a hint on what you did wrong, you could have taken Leadership, Production or Assembly. Skip Skip until the last moment.

Then all players would had a very slow expansion except you.

That is one of the mosty annoying but strongest advantage Yssaril has.....controlling the speed of expansion in a game.

Getting lots of AC's is just a nice bonus. It is not Yssaril's primary advantage.

The trick to see "how to play a race really well" is see what player "specializes" in that race and see what tricks he does.

Even the most harmless race has alot of bite to them if they are played correctly

The biggest complaint from these great Yssaril players is not from being attacked.....it is how you can draw the most horrible ACs in the deck.

I guess that's true. We don't play with any of the strategy cards you mentioned though (we use Initiative, Diplomacy 2, Political 2, Logistics, Trade 3, Warfare 1, Technology 2, and Imperial 2). I tried taking Warfare and Trade first in order to expand and basically control others expansions, but I think that made more enemies than friends when I saved trade until only I could use it.

As Yssaril, you do not want your opponents to refresh their planets, get counters or let your opponents get a build at their space docks and move those ships out that same turn.

That is key to prevent hostle opponents from expanding early in the game.

Skipping with strategy cards that does those things will buy you 2 extra turns before enemy fleets appear at your borders.

Use that time to build up your fleet and fleet supply.

As Yssaril, it is very hard for your opponents to do that to you.

Taking Trade and Warfare I does not slow your opponents down . Only take those strategy cards if your opponents are friendly or neutral.

Stalling with Trade is ok, but the neutral players always take a dim view of that then with the other strategy cards.

You also can ask for favors or a trade good to flip a strategy card.

A more detailed explaination :

1. Opponents cannot refresh their planets in time to build ships. Result, every ship that could not get built is a ship killed at the space dock.

2. Opponents cannot get counters. Counters are key to getting more planets so you can build ships. Result, more ships killed at the spacedock.

3. Opponents cannot build at an unactivated space dock and move out to take planets to build ships. Result, more ships killed at the spacedock.

4. Your hostile opponent has passed, so you tell a neutral opponent, I like you, but not my enemy. I will flip my strategy card now to help you out instead of stalling. That reassures all the neutral players that you are not a threat to them, but are quite reasonable. A free spying for them also costs you nothing and builds goodwill.

See how Yssaril can kill lots of ships by stalling with certain Strategy cards and swing the neutrals to his side.

That is Yssaril's prime ability. Starving spacedocks of resources to prevent ships from being built and playing diplomat with the neutrals to show you are willing to coordinate with them on flipping strategy cards.

At least 1/3 of the ships that attacked you should never been built if you had stalled with the right strategy card.

And some of the neutrals would have paid some favors back to you by not using their AC's on you.

Causing a race to expand slowly in the early turns, causes major long term effects for that race in the game.

You might try playing Yssaril trying this strategy. You might be pleased with the results.

Alot of strategies of how to play a race right is not obvious. You have to watch games where players specialize in playing a certain race, play.

I like crushing Yssaril because they are weak if not played right, but that is very hard to do if Yssaril is played well.

bnorton916 said:

I dislike your comment because it lacks any reason, arguement or content, you're stating that the only way to stop them is to take them early on without having any logic or reasoning behind it, and went out of your way simply to insult my comment. Frankly I don't really care what you think, but you should think about taking part in a cohesive discussion instead of simply saying that you can only stop Yssaril through early attack, and that my comment is, and i quote "lame".

P.s F*** you Bill

P.s I know im being a hypocrite here, and im enjoying it

Plz restrain from insulting ppl or trolling. I don't care to know how awesome you are as a player. The purpose of my main post is to know if other players felt like Yssaril is mechanicaly stronger compared to other races.

One thing we probably all can agree on is the Yssiril need to be careful, or they'll end up losing early. This has another side though, if you let them alone too long they're going to be unstoppable, as they will slow you down along the way.

So if anything, it takes a bit of skill to play the race properly. If you are winning, you are most likely doing all the game has to offer (bribing, stalling, using action and political to your advantage). Other races can do well by straight up attacking anyone in their way, however the Yssiril needs to be a bit more 'sly'.

I wouldn't call it overpowered, but it's certainly not weak. I say if you have an advanced player at the table and you give them YT, if the other player have less experience they will lose, no matter what. If they have roughly equal experience, it may take more than one person to slow YT down.

Gotejjeken: I could not agree with you more.

Saikokoro: I apologise for my previous conduct. Although not unprovoked, it was immature and childish.

Saikoro said:

Skipping by paying a command counter is worthless. No different than activating a system to delay(ok it is slightly different if CC exhaustion comes in play but you get what I mean)

If you are going to nerf them, let the CC be worth something. Look at someone ACs.

Bill

Count Jondi said:

The Tribes need 2 things: 1) a lot of space, since they can be crippled early by a 2nd turn attack on their carriers and 2) a lot of resources.

Keep them small, which is the key objective with any race, but moreso with the tribes.