Had this come up our last game. The Ballistic Mechadendrite (pg. 190) states that "the heretic may attack with this weapon as his Reaction." When exactly does this happen? A few possible interpretations:

1) You attack with it on your turn, using up your possible reaction in order to do so.

2) You attack outside your turn at any point, sacrificing your reaction.

3) You attack when a reaction is triggered on you, such as firing the mechadendrite instead of using a dodge or parry when attacked.

I'm pretty sure it means that you can make an attack with it on your turn, but you give up your reaction if you do so.

I disagree: Look at the wording of Reactions in the Combat section: it specifically says they may not be used on the character's turn. The few talents that allows you to use a reaction on your turn (and by "few" I mean "one", that one being Furious Assault) Specifically say they may be made, but only after certain requirements are meant. As the Ballistic Mechadendrite is saying to use a reaction, but does not provide a clause regarding when it may be used, it can be reasonable assumed that you may only use it when you would normally use a reaction: when an opponent is attacking you.

In this case, it is ambiguous whether the reaction attack resolves before or after the attacker's attack. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that they meant for the ballistic mechadendrite to act different from how I stated, but did not accurately word it (like so many other parts of the book...). Someone should probably email FFG to clear this up...

SilverFayte said:

Reverend mort said:

All All-out Attack does is prevent you from making Dodge or Parry actions: One could theoretically still use the Precognitive Dodge power after using an All-Out attack. Furious Assault, by nature of spending the reaction rather than simply disallowing certain related actions, would prevent someone using Precognitive Dodge.

Furthermore, Furious assault DOES explicitly say that it allows you to spend the reaction on your turn: "If the character successfully hits his opponent with the All-Out Attack action, he may spend his reaction ..." Emphasis mine.

However, I'll for a moment assume that you're correct when you say that Furious Assault is badly worded. Since Furious Assault is the only part of the book that so much as implied that one may spend their reaction in their turn, there is no longer any precedent for one being able to spend their reaction during their turn . As stated before, All-Out Attack does not spend one's reaction, merely denies the use of certain actions. Since the wording for reactions is clear that they may ONLY be used outside of one's turn, the wording for Ballistic Mechadendrite clearly statesthat it is a reaction, and there is no precident for reactions being able to be spent during one's turn, the wording of Ballistic Mechadendrite can still only refer to using it in the place of using a dodge or parry action, to forgoe defending in favor of firing at your attacker.

I will agree that the lack of a compact upgrade is amusing, though.

I disagree: Look at the wording of Reactions in the Combat section: it specifically says they may not be used on the character's turn. The few talents that allows you to use a reaction on your turn (and by "few" I mean "one", that one being Furious Assault) Specifically say they may be made, but only after certain requirements are meant. As the Ballistic Mechadendrite is saying to use a reaction, but does not provide a clause regarding when it may be used, it can be reasonable assumed that you may only use it when you would normally use a reaction: when an opponent is attacking you.

In this case, it is ambiguous whether the reaction attack resolves before or after the attacker's attack. Furthermore, it is entirely possible that they meant for the ballistic mechadendrite to act different from how I stated, but did not accurately word it (like so many other parts of the book...). Someone should probably email FFG to clear this up...

Ballistic mechandrite is not a talent, first of all. Secondly, it, just like furious assault, merely says you may use your reaction. By the logic you apply to Ballistic mechandrite, the second attack from furious assault would have to happen on a turn not yours. Thirdly, and this is big one, "A Reaction is a special Action made in response to some event, such as an attack." pg 234. SUCH AS. Meaning if we are gonna presume ballistic mechandrites are bound by the "may not use reactions on your own turn" rule then we need to define what the event that allows them to use it is. You see, a reaction is not by necessity a defensive move in response to an attack. A psychic hood can nullify any psychic power, regardless of it's nature. If it has no condition attached, which it doesn't... may I use it whenever? Opponent moves, reaction, shoot! Opponent intends to use a psychic power, reaction, shoot! Opponent takes a free action to say "DIE", reaction, shoot!

All All-out Attack does is prevent you from making Dodge or Parry actions: One could theoretically still use the Precognitive Dodge power after using an All-Out attack. Furious Assault, by nature of spending the reaction rather than simply disallowing certain related actions, would prevent someone using Precognitive Dodge.

That would be the "extremely niche situation" i mentioned. Psykers rocking both precog dodge and furious assault are, in my games, somewhat rare. And that's not even touching upon the fact that Precog dodge makes no mention of how it resolves multi-hit attacks either, meaning it's another somewhat questionably designed bit of rule.

Furthermore, Furious assault DOES explicitly say that it allows you to spend the reaction on your turn: "If the character successfully hits his opponent with the All-Out Attack action, he may spend his reaction..." Emphasis mine.

It says you may spend your reaction. It never specifies it's spent on your own turn. That violates the "never spend a reaction on your own turn" rule. Ergo, it must be spent on someone elses. Because it's a reaction, and furious assault never says it breaks or ignores another rule. Thus it doesn't.

However, I'll for a moment assume that you're correct when you say that Furious Assault is badly worded. Since Furious Assault is the only part of the book that so much as implied that one may spend their reaction in their turn, there is no longer any precedent for one being able to spend their reaction during their turn. As stated before, All-Out Attack does not spend one's reaction, merely denies the use of certain actions. Since the wording for reactions is clear that they may ONLY be used outside of one's turn, the wording for Ballistic Mechadendrite clearly statesthat it is a reaction, and there is no precident for reactions being able to be spent during one's turn, the wording of Ballistic Mechadendrite can still only refer to using it in the place of using a dodge or parry action, to forgoe defending in favor of firing at your attacker.

True, there isn't. Catch-22 that. However, as mentioned, reactions are not limited to defensive moves, and certainly not to parry or dodge moves. Thus, it is quite possible one could use said reaction WHENEVER one wishes, since there's no specified requirement to spend said ballistic reaction. Thus, I could happily use my ballistic mechandrite to shot someone whenever I wish. Probably on their turn, so they don't get to evade. Wow, it's like the whole massive Delay thing issue I started, only this one doesn't even need you to win initiative!

I will agree that the lack of a compact upgrade is amusing, though.

Or it would be, if I could mount a gun on it! Damnit!

Ballistic mechandrite is not a talent, first of all.

I never said it was, nor is the fact that it's not a talent particularly relevant to this discussion.

Secondly, it, just like furious assault, merely says you may use your reaction.

Incorrect: Furious Assault does not 'merely' say you may spend you reaction. It specifically says you may spend your reaction, IF you have made an All-Out Attack Action. It provides a singular condition allowing you to use a reaction inside of your turn. Ballistic Mechadendrite does NOT say you "may spend your reaction..." or any similar wording; It instead says you shoot someone AS your reaction. The difference: Ballistic Mechadendrite allows you to do something AS a reaction, while Furious Assault allows you to USE a reaction where you normally wouldn't.

It says you may spend your reaction. It never specifies it's spent on your own turn.

I just covered this, but to paraphrase: Furious assault allows you to use a reaction when (and therefore right after) you make a successful All-Out Attack. An All-Out attack, by its nature, may only be made on your turn, and therefore you may only make a successful All-Out attack on your turn, and therefore, since you both "may" and can only spend the reaction "when" you make the successful attack, you are allowed to use said reaction on your turn.

Because it's a reaction, and furious assault never says it breaks or ignores another rule. Thus it doesn't.

Rules are implicitly broken by other, more specific effects all the time in Black Crusade. As an example, Flexible weapons don't allow you to parry, despite the fact that the description for the Evasion action (page 235) specifically says you may parry melee attacks. The Flexible quality doesn't have to say that it breaks the Evasion rules, as the very purpose of the rule existing is to describe an exception to them. Same in this case, furious Assault does not have to say it violates the reaction rules, as it is, by its nature, describing an exception to them. Ballistic Mechadendrite, however, does not describe an exception to WHEN you may use a reaction, it describes an exception/addition to WHAT you may do with a reaction.

Thirdly, and this is big one, "A Reaction is a special Action made in response to some event, such as an attack." pg 234. SUCH AS. Meaning if we are gonna presume ballistic mechandrites are bound by the "may not use reactions on your own turn" rule then we need to define what the event that allows them to use it is. You see, a reaction is not by necessity a defensive move in response to an attack. ...

I hadn't thought about that. By the current wording, yes, you would be able to react to nearly anything (GM willing) the enemy does on their turn. However, doing so uses your reaction, and since you're attacking with a compact pistol weapon, you're unlikely to do too much damage to anything not weak enough to deserve being shot down during their own turn.

Wow, it's like the whole massive Delay thing issue I started, only this one doesn't even need you to win initiative!

...Except that Delay doesn't leave you totally defenseless; and doesn't limit you to a compact pistol weapon. On a side note...

And that's not even touching upon the fact that Precog dodge makes no mention of how it resolves multi-hit attacks either, meaning it's another somewhat questionably designed bit of rule.

Actually, it does. Precognitive Dodge clearly states: "If the power is successful, the psycher avoids the attack as if he had passed an Evasion Test. " And the rules for Evasion (again, page 235) clearly cover how to deal with multi-hit and blast attacks on a successful evasion test. Since Precognitive dodge acts like an succeeded Evasion test on a successful cast, these same rules apply.

I never said it was, nor is the fact that it's not a talent particularly relevant to this discussion.

Appealing to how a talent works when talking about equipment is somewhat unrelated. Two different parts of the game, and thus a 1:1 comparison is somewhat unapt.

Incorrect: Furious Assault does not 'merely' say you may spend you reaction. It specifically says you may spend your reaction, IF you have made an All-Out Attack Action. It provides a singular condition allowing you to use a reaction inside of your turn. Ballistic Mechadendrite does NOT say you "may spend your reaction..." or any similar wording; It instead says you shoot someone AS your reaction. The difference: Ballistic Mechadendrite allows you to do something AS a reaction, while Furious Assault allows you to USE a reaction where you normally wouldn't.

I just covered this, but to paraphrase: Furious assault allows you to use a reaction when (and therefore right after) you make a successful All-Out Attack. An All-Out attack, by its nature, may only be made on your turn, and therefore you may only make a successful All-Out attack on your turn, and therefore, since you both "may" and can only spend the reaction "when" you make the successful attack, you are allowed to use said reaction on your turn.

Yes, it says you may spend your reaction to make another attack after performing an all-out attack. It never, however, specifies this reaction is spent immediately following your all-out attack. That's you filling in a blank. Or to put it more bluntly "use a reaction when (and therefore right after)" is an incorrect assumption reading something that's never stated. It could very well be they intended for said reaction to be spent as reactions usually are. Nowhere in the text of the talent do they contradict this possibility.

Rules are implicitly broken by other, more specific effects all the time in Black Crusade. As an example, Flexible weapons don't allow you to parry, despite the fact that the description for the Evasion action (page 235) specifically says you may parry melee attacks. The Flexible quality doesn't have to say that it breaks the Evasion rules, as the very purpose of the rule existing is to describe an exception to them. Same in this case, furious Assault does not have to say it violates the reaction rules, as it is, by its nature, describing an exception to them. Ballistic Mechadendrite, however, does not describe an exception to WHEN you may use a reaction, it describes an exception/addition to WHAT you may do with a reaction.

Except the flexible weapon trait isn't implicit, it's explicit. "May not be parried" is an explicit statement to the effect of "X does not apply". If furious assault was the same, it would feature text to the effect of "this ignores the usual rules about spending reactions on one's own turn". And the fact that the mechandrite lacks clauses regarding it's triggering event(s) is equally bad whether we're talking it's use in or outside of a turn, so that's not really a solid argument for anything but bad writing.

I hadn't thought about that. By the current wording, yes, you would be able to react to nearly anything (GM willing) the enemy does on their turn. However, doing so uses your reaction, and since you're attacking with a compact pistol weapon, you're unlikely to do too much damage to anything not weak enough to deserve being shot down during their own turn.

I dunno. A plasma or inferno pistol to the face (with no allowed evasion test) kills a lot of things very dead. Especially since the compact upgrade in RT (from where this rule is rather clearly yanked) merely decreased damage by 1.

...Except that Delay doesn't leave you totally defenseless; and doesn't limit you to a compact pistol weapon. On a side note...

No, but it does require you to win initiative. Gain some, lose some. And you can still technically do both. Attack once, delay, end turn attack again, spend reaction, attack again! Three attacks in a round! But I suspect this is somewhat tangential considering it was little more than a bit of snark on my side, so let's move up and keep that giant mess of a rule where it belongs. In it's thread of shame!

Actually, it does. Precognitive Dodge clearly states: "If the power is successful, the psycher avoids the attack as if he had passed an Evasion Test. " And the rules for Evasion (again, page 235) clearly cover how to deal with multi-hit and blast attacks on a successful evasion test. Since Precognitive dodge acts like an succeeded Evasion test on a successful cast, these same rules apply.

Passed as in "generated one DoS" or passed as in "This was exactly as the evasion test, please count DoS"? Either way, it's a pretty crappy power. I mean, you're paying 200 xp and risking phenomena AND exposing yourself to all the possible effects that can complicate psychic powers AND being ****** over by a psychic hood, all so you can perform a dodge test with your perception instead of you agility, with a -10 penalty and the dubious pleasure of exchanging your psy rating for a skill? AND it has a subtype, which, granted, makes no difference since they only matter on your own turn where you can't perform it!

I suppose one reading that could make it worthwhile is reading passed as "Generated as many DoS as was needed to fully succeed and thus take no damage", which is the one we house ruled into our game.

Appealing to how a talent works when talking about equipment is somewhat unrelated. Two different parts of the game, and thus a 1:1 comparison is somewhat unapt.

Rules are rules. Talents and Equipment are essentially just sets of rules; the only difference is that you apply one set to your character by spending XP, and the other through acquisition tests/looting ingame. There should be no fundamental difference in how the rules they apply are worded. As this is an issue of wording, there is no issue comparing them.

Yes, it says you may spend your reaction to make another attack after performing an all-out attack. It never, however, specifies this reaction is spent immediately following your all-out attack. That's you filling in a blank.

Granted; it seems I had misread the rules for Furious Assault, and thought it stated you spend the reaction when you pass the test, when in fact it did not say any such thing. As such, I have to concede that Furious Assault is, indeed, badly worded, and shouldn't really be used as an example.

However, as I said earlier: If Furious Assault is not considered, there is no longer a precedent for being able to spend a reaction during your turn at all, and Ballistic Mechadendrite therefore still can only be used when it is not your turn.

As for Precognitive Dodge: It's situational. If you're using a high-perception, low Agility Psycher, a fettered Precog Dodge will likely treat you much better than a dodge would. You might even argue that it's more cost effective: the main way of increasing the change of precog dodge succeeding (buying psy rating) also makes you more powerful in general, where upgrading dodge (through upgrading the dodge skill) makes you... better at dodging, and that's it. Not going to argue about how it acts against multi-hit attacks; even if it isn't explicitly stated in the rules, I'm pretty sure almost everyone uses that same house rule you mentioned anyway; so I'll try to avoid derailing this thread from "SilverFayte and Reverend Mort argue about Ballistic Mechadendrite" to "SilverFayte and Reverend Mort argue about EVERYTHING FOREVER" =P

As an aside, ballistic mechadendrites have a similar description in the other lines, and create similar rules questions. Here's a thread I found from the Dark Heresy board asking the same thing about the reaction usage - including a comparison to furious assault, as an example of when you spend a reaction on your own turn to do something extra. The discussion goes along similar lines to the one here.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=99&efcid=3&efidt=414677

So not even the people with errata are sure on it. Brilliant.

Though the errata does at least provide an option for using it as a half action during your turn as well as the reaction option, so it makes a little more sense now as well. I'll admit that a weapon you can use as a reaction, but not as an action on your turn is a little odd, but if we assume the same errata applies to BC as well, that irons that out pretty well.

In my RT Game, I've decided to just treat it as an out of turn attack option. So if my Explorator wants to double move, or use a skill, he's still able to attack as a reaction to anything else in the round. We haven't had the occasion to use it as such, but it seems the most valid method.