Okay, Fire Selectors don't seem to be compatible with Las weapons for some odd reason, but that's not what this is about.

Now, as you all probably know, most Solid Projectile weapons (apart from those using a revolver setup and non-combat shotguns) work by using either the recoil or gas cycling to move a round from the magazine into the chamber. Which means that when you've fired such an SP weapon, the next round you can fire is already in the chamber. This makes for a very odd situation with Fire Selectors, since they state you can freely switch between clips.

Now, say you have three clips in your stub automatic, two with man-stopper bullts and one with dum-dums. You first fire some manstoppers and then switch target to someone unarmored, so you use your fire selector to switch to the dum-dums. However, the bullet currently in your chamber is a man-stopper bullet, so your first shot should be a man-stopper shot. And you can't say that the act of using the Fire Selector ejects the round and automatically feeds one from the new magazine, since fluff text implies that most SP weapons are caseless. I understand why this isn't an issue in the rules ( waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy too cumbersome), but it just seems a little weird to me.

What really makes me crosseyed is trying to imagine an autopistol or stub automatic with 3 clips attached (must be a but unhandy), no to mention a stub revolver or hand cannon with three seperate cylinders that you can freely switch between...

Why, yes, I do think a bit too much about these things. *G*

Why does a round being caseless mean that the fire selector can't eject the round? Caseless weapons still need an ejection port incase the round misfires, so if you do need an explanation you could say that the round is just ejected by the gun using whatever mechanism it has for dealing with duds.

Or perhaps you can say that the fire selector adds a mechanism for extracting a round from the chamber, perhaps to some "holding" chamber or back into the magazine.

Or just question why a player wants to understand the mysteries of the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Personally I'm of the opinion that the fire selector is inspired by Judge Dredd and that thoughts to it's "coolness" took priority over thoughts about it's practicality.

As to revolvers I'm quite happy to imagine some sort of Heath Robinsonesque contraption of cylinders, clockwork and springs.

With 41st millennial technology anything's possible.

A wizard did it. And then we burned the Wyrd!

Lasguns don't have multiple types of ammo so useless for them. I say it pushs round back into the clip clip in process of changing clips it fires from.

Actually, a lot of stuff that's possible with 21st century technology isn't possibole, that's kinda one of the points of the setting. *G* And it seems that SP weapons follow very closely what 21st century SP weapons are capable of.

Action_Carl said:

Overcharge packs and hotshot rounds?

And I really like the idea of the round being pushed back as you use the fire selector. I am going with that.

Letrii said:

I guess it in some models its 3 sepperate bullet cambers each connected to its clip , maybe in revolver drum style or 3 parallel mags with camber on a slider with a lock.

Actually, a lot of stuff that's possible with 21st century technology isn't possibole, that's kinda one of the points of the setting. *G* And it seems that SP weapons follow very closely what 21st century SP weapons are capable of.

More to the point: a lot of stuff that's possible with 21st century technology isn't known to be possible everywhere. Go through enough forge worlds and one of them (more likely most) will be able to do it.

Aside from the issue of physics and bulk (imagine a small auto-pistol like the Uzi of Mac-10 with 3 magazines), my real issue with the fire selector is that it's a game breaker. Few firefights last through 3 magazines, even at full auto. Fate points take care of jams, so this basically turns a gunman into a dual-wielding, bullet-spewing monster that stacks up his DoS extra hits faster than you can say "munchkin".

I get the idea: the scene in Judge Dredd where he selects his "Double Whammy" and "Full auto rapid fire" is quite cool. Perhaps it needs to be balanced by a clip-reduction element. Ie, you can stock up on 3 different ammo-types, but clip size remains the same. Or is doubled but not trippled, etc.

Thoughts?

We had the problem with fire selectors and full-auto as well (Psyker with a Hecuter, man-stopper bullets, fire selector and the power that gives +30 to shots was just nasty ), so we use this house rule; the Full Auto number is the number of shots that can hit when firing full auto, but you use double that from the magazine. Seems to have worked so far.

2Darth Smeg: IMHO this question can not be answered aside from the issue of physics. There are some real problems that can't be resolved with any kind of magic.

The first is bulk. Three clips - volume for ammo must be tripled. It doesn't matter when you have a freespace under/aside the barrel such as in the "full-sized" handguns. Weapon becomes more massive and it's the end of story. But when we look at the pistols and similar compact weapons we will found that there are simply no place for three clips.

The second is mechanics. There are two ways to make fire selector: doing it external or internal. First solution is a scheme when three clips are connected to selector and selector itself plugs into weapon. It is relatively huge and wide. Such selector type simply cannot fit inside the pistol grip. This is really simple but have unresolvable issues as listed above (round of previous ammo type remains in chamber). Second is internal selector. This removes many of questions listed above but it's not a weapon upgrade but a real deep construction rebuild. So in my game that will start soon I would permit my players to buy weapon with this upgrade already installed, no things like: "I want this weapon to be upgraded this way". This is suitable not for any weapon, however.

For pistols fire selector IMHO is simply "wow-thing" and pistol clip canot be extended more than 50-75% its starting capasity. I have no idea why tripled clip size cannot be permitted for basic weapons. IMHO again the fire selector is at first the way to enlarge clip size: benefits of quick ammo type changing is questionable (you always can mix ammo of different type in one clip - little military trick). By the way there is no upgrade such as enlarged clip.

Oh, I forgot. Some comments to all written above:

• A fire selector cannot be set on lasgun, only on SP pistol or basic weapon - see the rule restrictions.
• A fire selector doesn't increase Rate of Fire. Number of Full Auto doesn't change. You still have only one barrel and only one load mechanism that doesn't begin to work faster. The only benefit from the fire selector is a triple clip size.
• Another one sad thing: you don't have one triple size clip, you have three standart size clips. Burst is a full action. You can change clip once per round but (nor by rules nor by simple logic) not while you are shooting. So you can't shoot out more than your one clip capasity rounds.
• Sequent from previous (my own example): if you have 15 rounds clip and Full Auto of 6, you can shoot Auto burst six times and left with three rounds in each of three clips (you don't permitted to shoot Auto burst seven times).
• IMHO based on logic: since you have three clipses your reload time is tripled. Or you may opt to reload one clip at the usual reload time and lose all benefits from using fire selector.

All of this makes fire selector a little less munchkin-reliable.

2JacobKlunder: do you mean the Unnatural Aim power? Please don't forget that a overall circumstance bonus cannot exeed +60 (see errata). So your Psyker could only hit target with all of his six shots (if he is lucky enough). It's undoubtedly nasty but Hecuter now (thanks to the errata) have Penetration of 0 +3 for Man-Stopper. This way it inflicts 1d10+3 I per bullet against flak or lighter armored man. Expectation for 1d10 is5.5. Add 3 substract Toughness bonus(2-3 for usual human). So we have 6 (presumed) hits 5.5 Wounds each. 33 Wounds. It is enough to tear ordinary man apart but not to seriously harm dangerous opponent that have better armor and/or Toughness bonus (for example, my 3,000XP PC has T bonus of 5 and Armor 6, 13 Wounds. Y ep, I know I'm munchkin. ) or even Supernatural Toughness.

TB of 5 with AP 6 and only 13 wounds is in no way munchkin it is way to easy to achieve.

Munchkin is a psyker with the pyro domain mastery and psychic supremacy, The firestorms.. dear god the firestorms.... OMG it BURNS!!!

Fire selectors make little sense. They only make any sense at all when the weapon is built that way from the start. The last round problem can be solved by having the weapon stop with the bolt back. The next pull of the trigger would then let the bolt fly forward stripping up the new ammo type. Of course I would add the inaccurate trait to any weapon with this as the bolt going forward would mess up your aim. Perhaps combined with a bolt forward lever or switch.. IE bolt locks back you change ammo selection then let the bolt slide forward, still Rube Goldburge though.

I simply replaced the fire selectors with extended clips/magazines/charge pack as an option instead. (cylinders/revolvers need not apply)

AA-12 assault shotgun, Browning BAR 1918, Degtyarov RPD, PPSh, PPS - they all shoot from open bolt and are accurate enough. So I'm not sure about Inaccurate trait. By the word bolt can be not only linear sliding but for example cross-sliding. That would negate or at least decrease messing.

Increased clip/magazine is good solution IMHO but fire selector for many people is just a cool shtick. So if they need it they get it. By the word adding some more details and upgrades in official rules is a bit dangerous. I want more ammo type for my auto shotgun such as EXP slugs, subcaliber AP slugs, fletchette ammo and other and other. With all respect to this highly realistic and useful things I realize that it would be a GM's nightmare - much more effective than all described in basic rules. So I don't even try to gain this. Fire selector is silly but Warhammer itself is silly. Fire selector is useful since triples clip size and don't break the official rules nor it makes a monstrous firefighter PCs.

Mystificator, just so we're clear, I agree with all your points. I've had some problems trying to explain how a fire selector might work, and even when accepting that is "just works", the tripple amount of ammo (with the necessary increase in volume and weight) will make pistols unwieldly.

The "game breaking" issue is simply with the "extended magazine" feature, that allows for many more bursts between reloads. Yes, the reload takes 3 times as long, but most firefights would be over before the dual-wielding munched upp gunman runs out.

At least in the core book, those weapons capable of fireing on full auto have clip-sizes in full multiples of their RoF. (Ie, Autopistols have a clip of 18, allowing exactly 3 bursts on full auto. With Fire Selector, he can now make 9 consecutive bursts, with no delay. A regular machine gun

I think, a problem is at first in roleplaying combat itself. I'm playing airsoft so I can say there are many differences when you play board game and lie face down behind cover. I always wield three clips 68 "rounds" each and it's not enough. By the word I must say airsoft and real combat also are big differences. So your first goal is not to kill an enemy but to keep yourself unhurt. It means you will shoot not the enemy but the terrain where you presume he is. (he also lies behind cover and you usually don't see him) In the war of Vietnam unbeliavable quantity of ammo was spent to kill one enemy. (I have no statistics right now but it is about 500-1000 shots AFAIK) In theese circumstances fire selectors indefinitely are not "game breakers".

Unfortunately I don't know how to guide game this way although I had think a lot about it. There are many points as taking shot comrade to hospital, recovery after becoming wounded (wich might take a couple of time and sometimes cause fail in the current task or simply makes enemies much stronger) and many other. I must warn you about playing this kind of "highly realistic" game is not appropriate in general and is acceptable for only "hardcore" players.

At least i'll remind that you are the master of your game and can block or add any rules you see appropriate. We are playing for fun and all that pleases both players and GM is good. If you want the "cool shtick" as in Judge Dredd your solution with no extra clip capacity is a really good point.

I don't remember reading that a weapon with a fire selector had to have 3 clips. I was under the impression you could also purchase a 2 clip fireselector as well. It always made more sense to me that some weapons just couldn't logically have room for more than 2 clips.

Just wondering because it seems like everyone is insinuating that you automatically get triple the ammo load.

DH p142: Fire Selector entry.

"... A weapon with the fir selector can have up to three different clips added..."

DH p142: Fire Selector entry.

"... A weapon with the fire selector can have up to three different clips added..."

Fixed that for you - nowhere does it state must have 3 clips

As a player, and a GM, I fail to see how a Autogun with three clips is overpowered, with Jakob's example with a psyker being the only exception.

If you don't let your players start with it, but let them get them after a few ranks, it seems all okay. Its just some more rounds without reloading, instead of one reload per combat - of course there is the thing that it also let you change ammo, which can be nice( up to +2 dmg or +2pen) but hardly overpowered.

Of course this is coming from the guy, who made it through shattered hope on 1 clip in the autogun, and no other team member changing clips. I think that was pretty neatly done, but a little weird that the Impire would not give more ammo to an acolyte squad meant to do, what a regiment of IG could not do. I guess the gm got the idea that denying us anything, but 2 torch lights, and 2 grenades was a way to show that we were at the bottom of the =I= - but not even getting 20 bullets more, hurt my suspension of disbelief.

...Idless

The main problem is that there are almost not Las weapons with full auto capability, whereas it's easy to get for SP weapons. Full Auto gives you +20 (single shot aim PLUS red-dot bonus) and you could easily hit with more bullets. Better ammo for SP don't reduce clip size as better ammo for las weapons do. Now, fire selectors take away one of the advantages las weapons have over SP, namely ammo capacity and with a fire selector, the main (only?) disadvantage of full auto, namely ammo consumption, is negated. You can blaze away and rarely, if ever, worry about running out of ammo in a fight.

It means nobody ever uses short bursts and single shots are only for aimed shots with Accurate weapons or when you only have a half action left. And who would use las weapons?

2Emprah_Horus: "nowhere does it state must have 3 clips". Sorry but I think it can be treated both ways. So if a weapon can have it, what prevents me from adding it?

2Idless: Acolyte can buy it with his own money if he wants. And I don't see anything in buying "cool" equip from the start. Acolytes don't have enough money to buy all they want so it's all right as I can see.

2JacobKlunder: I don't think weapons in DH are balanced in this way. Las guns IMHO are cheap, easy-to-get weapons and nothing more. Next, even with the halved clip size las weapons still lead in ammo capasity. Last, sidebar on DH p132 points at fact the charge packs can be recharged from any power source or even in open fire. Good advantage, as for me.

Not good enough for me. *G* Which is why I use the house rule.

Mystificator said:

@Mystificator The rules also allow you to add Mono to a powerfist, but does that mean you should? I'm not saying the rules are foolproof, but a little common sense goes a long way. Pistols, even in the 40k universe, shouldn't have more than 2 clips. A basic class weapon I can see having 3 clips, but not on a pistol, whether the rules allow it or not. Thats just how I play though, you are correct that the rules allow it, I just try to add some roleplaying to my rollplaying .