I was sitting and looking over my copy of the Radical's Handbook and is struck me as a surprise that not more of these factions than the Phaenonites have been excommunicated and hunted down like animals. Just for a start the Istvaanians strike me as a bunch of guys who are nothing but problem and actually actively working to undermine the Imperial from within as much as any heretic, apostate or xenophile and the same could go for several others mentioned who really seems to be the kind of guys who the Imperium would be better off with their heads on spikes.

This got me thinking a little and I decided to try and see the reason for why the Phaenonites were singled out but guys like the Istvaanians, Horusians etc. are allowed to keep working and potentially cause massed havoc with no official response from the larger Inquisition to their “special” practices. After thinking a little about it the only thing that made the Phaenonites stand out was that they seem to have rejected the God-Emperor’s rule and sought to make themselves the masters of mankind and I figure that this might be where the problem lies. So in essence I would think that the Inquisition as a group is pretty much cool with almost anything that don’t deny the rule of the God-Emperor, even if individual Inquisitors may not be entirely cool with some stuff that goes on and try to do something about it.

I naturally also suppose that Inquisitorial politics can be part of this as Radical factions might cover each other’s backs so that the Puritans won’t get an opportunity to purge them one by one by saying “Just these ones, because they’re obviously heretics, but only them…”

Thoughts and comments?

I think you are getting one thing wrong.

You think that the other factions are somethinig that´s existence is excepted & known to anyone inside the Inquistion. I think, this is not the case. Especially since their is a table with Forbidden Lore checks so you can see if & what somebody knows about a faction!

The Phaeonites where eradicated because they were oh-so-pure evil AND they became widely known. Something that lead to anybody else hunting them. After all the planet/system they were setting up shop.

Since the rest of them are either "debated upon" or more like a "School of Thought / Philopshy" it is much harder to hunt them.

Gregorius21778 said:

While you are right that the divisions within the Inquisition is something that is kept well away from the greater Imperium and junior servants of the Inquisition I think that you are mistaken in how things look within the Inquisition itself as almost every write up for example regarding the various factions and also regarding, for example, Inquisitor Lord Anton Zerbe of the Tyrantine Cabal have a pretty good graps of the various factions that makes up the Inquisition. Hence I must say that I disagree with you and think that most Inquisitors seems to be at least aware of most of the various factions and what they think.

I think that most Radicals would burn if they get caught doing what they do, for instance an istvaanian caught with plans for bombing a world.

However just debating the possiblities of the effects of conflict strenghening the imperium is not the same. Some Istvaanians may look upon hard won wars as a good thing, the survivors will probably be better at fighting than those who died. Istvaanians seem to like the idea of natural selection and is arguing that this is the way all things should be, but they dont openly act upon their beliefs.

Xanthites argues that theoreticly you could use some parts of chaos against chaos. Of course anyone openly using sorcery and not psychic powers would be in a great deal of trouble.

Of course some Inquisitors are known to be Xanthites but i doubt there is any hard evidence of these claims.

So to me Radicals can debate their beliefs openly but not act upon them.

Phaenonites acted openly upon their beliefs and their beliefs were so vile that they could not be tolerated, screw the emperor and the mechanicus (basicly) and their teachings.

Well, the problem is hawks will not pick out hawks' eyes, at least under normal circumstances. This and the phenomenon that there is not "the Inquisition", but rather many Inquisitors with different attitudes and agendas, makes it rather hard to say whether a certain "radical" Inquisitor crossed the line (of excommunication) per se. Most Inquisitors act in a sort of vacuo and there must be real hard evidence for others of their kind to act against one of their own and normally they would only do so, if the reputation of the whole Inquisition as an institution is endangered. Furthermore, in the greater Imperium of Men, most Inquisitors will not even meet another Inquisitor (except in the rather crowded Calixis Sector maybe) for years.

Besides, in my opinion your assessment is wrong as well Greg. Every Inquisitor of normal standing and even most senior Interrogators know of the greater factions of/within the Inquisition. Maybe not about every detail and whether one or the other Inquisitor is part of this or that faction, but of its greater structure and power for sure. Phaenonites and the smaller factions are another topic for sure.

Regarding hard evidence and openly actiong upon, Bassemandrh, there is an Inquisitor that ran around openly with a Daemon Sword in the Tricorn as mentioned in the Radicals Handbook...

Who was that? i cant seem to recall anything like that :/

Bassemandrh said:

Inquisitor Natius Osrinn

Luthor Harkon said:

I must say that this incident makes me think that my case that the Inqusition shows a very large degree of tolerance for their own is even stronger than before, although I could of course be wrong - but running around in the Tricorn with a daemon weapon seems like it would lead to some kind of reaction.

Gurkhal said:

Well, I re-read his description and he actually reappeared in the Calixis Sector openly wielding a Daemon Weapon and was summoned to the Tricorn, but he disregarded it and left for the Halo Zone. Still, it none the less shows that "the Inquisition" gives a huge leeway to its indvidual Inquisitors.

My understanding is that the main reason radical inquisitors get away with what looks like heresy is simply because they're inquisitors.

Firstly, radical inquisitors can be just as powerful as puritans. This doesn't just mean in combat strength but in influence and alliances. A smart radical inquisitor will not only be very able to hide evidence of his heresy but even if he is uncovered then he will have many individuals willing to protect him politically either because he's blackmailng them, they find him valuable or simply because they are also radical inquisitors committing the similar actions. In fact I think I read a piece of fluff that said radicals tend to be older which would imply they would hae built up moe influence and alliances. Also, because they're still inquisitors there is basically no one but other inquitiors who can purge them.

Secondly, other inquisitors, even if they disagree with the actions of the radical might hesitate to act against them because they believe unity is more important than a little heresy.

Finally, some other inquisitors may believe that what is heresy in the hands of the common man may be permissible for an inquisitor. Inquisitors tend to be an arrogant lot and all of them, by necessity, take extreme actions to defend the imperium. It's not much of a leap of logic for them to begin justifying actions by their colleagues which would merit immediate purging if committed by anyone else.

Ultimately though I think the first reason is the most important. Puritan inquisitors may wish to purge all the radicals but that doesn't mean they have to power to do so. You would have to get several puritans workin together specifically to hunt down radicals when they could be working independently to purge a far greater number of more dangerous threats. Not to mention that many other radical (and likely moderates as well) would look upon such a cabal of 'supposedly puritans' hunting down fellow inquisitors with dismay and begin to act against them.

I've just read Eisenhorn and it captures it well I think. Being a radical doesn't necessarily make you a Heretic. When you intentions go against the Emperor, THEN you are a heretic. Whether or not you are a Heretic for using radical methods is also down to the ability of someone to persecute you for your radical ways. Using a Deamonhost is pretty radical, but if you do it to destroy a Chaos Titan, or stop a sorceror who is immune to mundane attacks from destroying a subsector then your intentions are pure. A Puritan or Wytch-hunter may turn up and try and kill you, but not very likely in the Tricorn, because you will have supporters there, and avoiding a civil war is more important the wasting a percieved 'heretic' then and there in those ircumstances.

There is little black and white for most* inquisitors, eventually all Inquisitors end up as radicals OR psychotics (or both - they're the really scary ones who probably are heretics).

*Monodominants ecepted of course, and in any case, once ones intentions stray from doing the Emperors work then it is ON.