I've recently started using a Winter-themed deck, but don't have much experience in playing against a Summer build. My deck has two White Ravens and three Carrion Birds. What general advice do you have in this situation? My opponent was playing Summer Targ.

We both revealed A Time for Ravens, he won the coin flip, and chose to go second. What should I have done, or what should my deck include to battle Summer?

jmccarthy said:

Carrion Birds and the Raven attachments themselves can remove those evil Black Raven's from play.

Ill Tidings is also another option if you have any LEARNED or Maester characters in play.

He knew that he can get rid of your White Raven once it's attached if you happened to grab a copy of it and attached it to your house card. That being said, if you grabbed a carrion bird, you can use it to get rid of his Black Raven if you won a challenge with it.

Basically you are both battling each others seasons with your respective Ravens, so I am not sure what else there is to do unless you add Ill Tidings to help you.

wow! I'd never noticed before that Ill tidings had the "raven" trait.

It suddenly seems so much more useful.

With a match-up like that, it can be tough, and you often end up second-guessing. Should you wait for the opponent to make it Summer, let him have it for a turn, then make it Winter? What if your opponent doesn't make it Summer and waits for you to make it Winter?

The problem with going up against Targaryen Summer with any kind of Winter deck is that Targaryen will probably be able to recur discarded Ravens much more easily than you (via Lady Daenerys' Chambers for example) and can burn away your Carrion Birds without much trouble.

Shenanigans said:

I totally second-guessed myself and did more damage to myself than my opponent did to me. Ugh. Any other general strategy advice for defeating Targ Summer with a winter deck?

I like the previous advice about Ill Tidings (if you run enough Maesters/Learned.)

What's your Winter deck? options to deal with Targ Summer burn will depend on that.

Bara winter, choke rush.

jmccarthy said:

Interesting; I'm unfamiliar with that archetype. Are you up to providing a decklist? (maybe in the decks sub forum)

Otherwise, are you more noble-based, Holy/Asshai-based?, or Night's Watch based? What choke elements do you include (other than Winter itself.) Do you run an Agenda?

If you're going the Holy/Asshai route, I'd recommend using targeted hand destruction like Altar of Fire and Confession to get rid of Black Ravens, Carrion Birds, and any recursion. This can also be helpful because Targaryen's traditional problem is a lack of draw. Kings of Summer helps them get around it somewhat, but it still needs to get and keep the pieces in play.)

If youre running any maesters or a maester deck you can use a combination of copper link + tin link to discard your opponent's ravens over and over again. i.e. use your copper link to give your tin link a raven trait and use the tin link to discard the raven! Other than that Im afraid you just have to live with what raven manipulation you got?
The crown of Azor Ahai might be usefull for forcing your opponent's ravens out either? Since it makes it winter your opponent would Have to play a raven to cancle its effect and then you play your own to discard it!

Yep, the tin and copper link combo is good also, and repeatable.

The other problem is that most solutions are attachment-based, and Targaryen is the house best-suited to discard attachments.

My approach here would be something like:

Generally:

- Hold your own raven until they play theirs, maybe even search it on round 2 instead of 1 so that you can't lose it to intrigue. It being Summer won't hurt you nearly as much as Winter will hurt him, and if he decides to hold his bird also, then his draw engine is nicely disabled.

Against Targ Summer:

- Think about having some location control that can hit unique locations (should be a given in choke anyways, so not a problem), this can stop them from recurring via Dany's Chambers.

- If you can't remove the Chambers against Targ, then use your Carrion Bird to shuffle their Raven back into their deck... just to force them into having to redraw it instead of recursing.

- In later turns, try to go first, so that you get to use your own Raven before them

With Baratheon:

- Hard to run enough Maesters for Ill Tidings. Chains might be easier, but hard to get enought Maesters for that either (will still being Choke/Rush)... With Apprentice Collars, *maybe*.

- Regarding the unique locations: Salladhor Saan might be worthwhile, even though he costs a ton (Seat of Power helps). If you're running Fiery Kiss, then more than one copy could be decent enough.

- Consider running a third White Raven, since you probably won't have a good enough draw to keep up with the season war otherwise.

WWDrakey said:

Great thoughts, especially Fiery Kiss + Sallador. Never thought of bringing him back during marshalling before. Awesome.

Shenanigans said:

That would be your main problem vs Targ. Red Walock can pull a backup Raven too. I suppose another issue is you can't choke out our Influence easily.
I've generally found Winter beats the pants off Summer when they fight unless LDC is involved. Since Winter decks are to be so cheap they almost don't even know what to do with the bonus 2 gold when its Summer and don't struggle as much; but Summer decks get hit really hard by that loss of gold. Kings of Summer hurts so bad when it is Winter, but if your opponent is actually benefiting from Kings of WInter then that probably means you already did some damage (lol, when is a Winter deck going to outdraw a Summer one?)

I'd also really like to hear more about this Bara Winter Rush Choke deck too... hmm, maybe you try to be 2nd player and you're using the Bara Wall to let your Renown guys into 2-3 challenges each Round?

Its actually Bara treaty with the Isles, splashing some Greyjoy winter in there. New Asha, Knight of Flowers, anti-shadows Robert, Euron, and a very healthy dose of choke.

Interesting, I'm doing the same thing right now but using unopposed mechanics instead of choke. Rise of the Kraken + Mel + Scouting Vessels = win!

Yeah, Bara and Greyjoy actually work in tandem quite well. Mel is an absolutely fantastic card for GJ. I had some good success with a GJ Nobles deck with Alliance Baratheon. Cards like The Fox's Teeth, Ser Eldon Estermont, and Core Set Stannis all do a lot to help with unopposed. Throw in Smuggler's Cove and Massey's Hook, two of my all-time favorite locations, and the Krakens and the Stags play so well together.

If you are sticking to Bara I'd toss in-

Stannis's Northern Cavalry-

Cannot be killed/discarded if their strength has been raised or lowered.