So if anyone has listened to the latest 2 Guys 1 Throne, you'll know that they bring up some pretty big questions. Is Valar needed? Is there a new to build AROUND Valar? Has the Valar meta finally come to its end? Discuss!

Now that I have several hundred matches under my belt I feel I can comment on this issue with a bit more credibility. Of the many many games where I have included valar in my plot deck, and actually used it, the number of games that I have won is very small. Maybe less than 5%. Because of this I have decided that I will not be using it very much anymore. It has turned into a 'delaying the inevitable' option for me.

Well, my rebuttal to that is, is there any other card that would've helped you there? Or were you just going to lose the game anyway and not even Valar could save you?

I personally like very much the quote that says that "Valar is THE card that defines this game". Without Valar it would be quite a dumb game. Said that, anybody is free to use it or not, but thanks god it is there.

Honestly, I would like to see some creative alternatives to Valar. I don't even mean Wildfire Assault or Valar Dohaeris.

Resets exist to allow you to catch up, or recover, and can be used to your advantage depending on how your deck is built. What about the opposite of a reset? A boost if you will...
Perhaps a plot that says "If you have these specific conditions, you may draw your hand up to 7 cards and treat the next Player Action window like it's Setup." Where if you can find some kind of way to make it balanced(0 claim, or a condition created that doesn't allow you to attack, etc.) for the phase, that would be an interesting plot to use to play catch up. Maybe make it like Feast or Famine or where you are not obligated to use the boost if you don't meet the conditions to allow it.

There can be a number of different types of a boost type of plot to help get you back into the game. Powers Long Asleep is a neat way to help you play catch up too.

Staton said:

Troll....

Well I think there are cards like that. At the Gates, Many Powers Long Asleep, Family. Duty. Honor. Those are all plots that are designed to let you catch up when you're behind. They can also be used to put yourself ahead when you're already ahead though. I just don't like the idea of something like you envisioned though, because to balance it there would have to be a really strict condition. which means I might not get to use it and its just a dead plot. Valar will NEVER be a dead plot. It will always do something.

goshdarnstud said:

I'm confused? lol

Bomb said:

How about "Declare Bankruptcy." 5/0/1

Remove all power from your house card, place all cards you control out of play (cannot be saved), and remove all cards in your hand from the game. Then, place the top 7 cards of your deck in your hand.

I'm envisioning a picture of the monopoly guy with empty pockets.

I feel like without valar, you need something else. Westeros Bleeds, Wildfire, something.

There are definitely other solutions out there, but they sometimes require you to build your deck around them. WB for example, needs 4 influence!

I feel like you should discard your cards or put them on the bottom of the deck. I really hate removed from game effects. Otherwise I see this being an ok plot. Looks like someone needs to win GenCon this year!

I think you may have misunderstood me about catch up plots. Feast or Famine, for example, has a give and take. It will never really be a useless plot because if you need play catchup, you can choose the +6 gold, but if you do not, then you can go for the 2 claim. The condition behind the "catch up plot" should really be a give and take with options or conditions.

I mean, Valar can be used against someone who has 10 characters out that will die while you have 1. It wipes their board when it can mean the most. While it may even out the board, but it does not necessarily let you play catch up at the same time if you can't afford to put anyone out or if you still only have 3 or 4 cards in your hand and one or no characters which means Valar didn't really help all that much.

Normally if you must use Valar, it probably hurts you the least because of how far behind in board position you are. That doesn't necessarily mean it will hurt your opponent that much either especially if they have built up enough to let them save certain characters. Then while their board position has weakened, it hasn't changed too much for you and you must survive that round with 0 claim.

I also find Valar to be more useful for offensive purposes than for catchup purposes a lot of the time.

I welcome any alternative that may be as simple as a plot.

Well I still think the problem is not, "I need a stronger plot to catch up", but "I need a stronger deck" I think that we all agree that you need a reset plot. Otherwise why not just all run stark siege weenie decks. The problem in most of the cases is that you needed to play Valar sooner while you still had the cards in hand to recover.

I'm behind on my 2C1C podcasts, so I didn't hear that discussion yet.

Having said that, is there any opinion that First Snows will act as an alternative(not necessarily a replacement) to VM or WA?

I really like FS - seems pretty wicked and will shake things up (yeah I know it was around during the CCG days, but not sure if it's changed since then or what it would be like in the current LCG card pool). Not being very experienced, I know enough to know it's usually a good idea to have a good mix of weenies and powerful/expensive dudes, and it seems like First Snow could really screw you if you happen to be weenie-heavy! (or Bolton heavy, or whatever low-cost high-strength character mix you have out).

Having played a lot of games recently with more customized decks in a melee environment, I'm really starting to see the value of Wildfire Assault - not only in terms of stopping opponents from flooding the board, but the effect it can have on players who have built up a nice field of dupes and saves, only to realize those dupes and saves are useless

Anyway, good discussion - thanks for bringing it up!

I just wanted to point out that this is a separate podcast called 2 Guys 1 Throne. It is in no way related to 2 Champs 1 Chump. Also I don't think that First Snow will have nearly the effect of a true reset. It will work the best out of a strong intrigue deck like the Asshai or Lannister Power Behind the Throne.

Valar really is one of those cards you need to at least consider in your deck building, as so many decks will be running it. It's not as easy as it used to be, though, what with so many other "resets" out there, like Wildfire, Westeros Bleeds, and First Snow. Valar will always be the head of the class because of its simplicity and totality.

Despite having learned the utility of running Valar in most of my plot decks, I still wouldn't mind seeing a separate "restricted plot" list. I know it's been brought up before, but why not put Valar, Fear of Winter, Search and Detain, on that?

Shenanigans said:

I agree with this. It's really the only reset that can quickly deal with board flooding and expensive renown characters at the same time. I think Threat from the North is also good enough to be considered for your go-to reset, but only in a few builds.

Rave said:

I concur; mainly Targ burn and perhaps some Stark "direwolf burn" builds.

I think Valar represents an important 'safety net' card for virtually any joust deck. Most decks where I aren't deliberately trying to take games to plot 7 and beyond I usually build my plots assuming that the game will be over by plot 5 giving me 2 slots for plots that can help keep me in the game if things don't come up as consistently as they should. I think Valar should always be available in an unrestricted form to prevent run away victories that are entirely down to poor starting hands, this is one of the few games I have played where having a poor to mediocre starting hand will not automatically spell doom, and the way plots work and the existence of plots such as Valar are a big part of that. I doubt there is anyone that doesn't consider what a Valar will do to them when they build and play.

Staton said:

QFT. If nothing else, GJ players will always run it because of their plethora of saves.

Shenanigans said:

TftN will never replace a true reset plot, even in a very burn-heavy deck; you need the reset to deal with Army characters and other guys that you just can't burn away. And after running it in a Direwolf deck for a while I realized it really doesn't belong there; it sounds great at first since a few wolves + Shaggydog will scare your opponent into not challenging you for a Round... but in any deck that isn't Targ burn, playing TftN when you are facing a burn deck is like handing the win to your opponent. It might as well be House Targ only. I guess if your meta has no Targ players its a safe plot.

Skowza said:

hah, I never thought about this.

I guess I am in the minority when I say that I have won quite a few games when I have been forced to play valar. I honestly don't think I have ever built a joust deck without it simply because if my opponent gets off to a fast start I almost have to have a way to catch up, or deal with certain problem characters, especially a non Beric character with a ton of powerful attachments but no saves.

I also think of Valar as an offensive weapon, especially out of Greyjoy with their saves AND Martell/Lannister. The new agenda with Lannister means the first 2 rounds you can theoretically win 4+ claim 2 intrigue challenges, no matter how good the opponent is drawing, a third turn valar means he is now top decking with limited or no characters in play. Martell can do it similar with a couple 3 claim intrigue challenges from Arianne, plus both of these houses have good draw options that do not rely on characters.

As Staton alluded to earlier in the thread, if Valar was gone I think rush builds and swarm builds out of Baratheon and Stark would see much better results. Of course any meta would be free to host a tourny that Valar or resets in general were not permitted if they wanted to test it out.

I have not seen a lot of discussion yet on the impact of Outwit to the use of Valar. Have people found it to be a non issue? Do you include outwit as one of your plots to try and time a flop with valar? Does the fact that outwit is in the card pool affect your use of including valar?

While I actually rarely play the plot, and will even less now that First Snow is legal, I think it is good for the environment. It is both game-defining and a natural counter to many strategies that could get overwhelming.

But, while we are nitpicking:

1. It should say you can't save your own characters. Otherwise, like Threat, it many times becomes a one-sided reset with little set-up - mainly with GJ and their ever-increasing level of efficent saves. IMHO Valar is getting less and less effective for five houses (especially w/ Outwit and the lesser Art of Seduction) and better and better for Greyjoy. Threat should almost say "Targ Only" and Valar is getting close to saying "GJ Only". Another option would be printing better nuetral save options.

2. There needs to be a decent location removal plot. Sorry, Fleeing doesn't quite do it. I rail on this all the time, so sorry - but it always annoys me that there are at least 3 mass-removal character plots, a few efficent targeted removal plots, and about 100 little-to-no-cost events and character abilities...to match up against one sub-par location mass removal plot, no targeted removal plot, and a couple of playable events and one (maybe two with Saan) in-house character ability.

rings said:

I hear ya, but with GJ choke, even MORE location removal scares the daylights out of me. But that aside, it would probably me a good thing, especially with some of the beastly locations coming about. (Iron Throne I'm looking at you)