I recently bought the core set and was playing vs my brother (House Lannister). I was House Targaryen. He kept using Shae & Lannisport Brothel, forcing my key characters to kneel. I was just wondering if this forces ALL types of characters to kneel because I couldn't imagine Rhaegal (Dragon) going to a brothel or Shae making an entire army of Unsullied (Eunuchs) kneel .___.

Just asking to check if I missed something

Yep, that's how it works -- when in doubt do EXACTLY what the card tells you to do, without assumptions.

Shae --

Challenges: Kneel Shae to choose and kneel a character controlled by a player with more power than you.

Lannisport Brothel --

Response: After a knelt character stands during the standing phase, kneel Lannisport Brothel to kneel that character.

There are no restrictions written into these effects. They apply to any character (unless, of course, that character's text were to specifically state otherwise).

dragons have needs too

And direwolves, too... nah, the real crap hits when it's a little kid targeted, like Bran or Tommen (they're not even 10). Anyway, though fluff would lead to think it doesn't work, it's perfectly valid mechanically, so it does work.

Apologies for the thread necromancy, I'm new to the game and have a related question.

With regards to Shae, whose card reads: "Challenges: Kneel Shae to choose and kneel a character controlled by a player with more power than you."

Shae only has the Intrigue icon on her card. Is she able to kneel another player's character during Military and Power challenges, as well? Or is it that she can kneel another player's character at any point during the Challenges phase, regardless of whether or not she is participating as an attacker or defender in a challenge? I think the latter is probably correct.

I also find the reference to "more power than you" on her card a little bit confusing. Does this mean that the opposing player (defender or attacker) would have acquired a greater number of power tokens at that point in the game, or does it refer to the total attacking/defending strength of the opposing player in a power challenge? Shae does not have the Power icon on her card, so she should not be able to participate as an attacker or defender in Power challenges.

Can someone please help clarify?

Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

Apologies for the thread necromancy, I'm new to the game and have a related question.

With regards to Shae, whose card reads: "Challenges: Kneel Shae to choose and kneel a character controlled by a player with more power than you."

Shae only has the Intrigue icon on her card. Is she able to kneel another player's character during Military and Power challenges, as well? Or is it that she can kneel another player's character at any point during the Challenges phase, regardless of whether or not she is participating as an attacker or defender in a challenge? I think the latter is probably correct.

I also find the reference to "more power than you" on her card a little bit confusing. Does this mean that the opposing player (defender or attacker) would have acquired a greater number of power tokens at that point in the game, or does it refer to the total attacking/defending strength of the opposing player in a power challenge? Shae does not have the Power icon on her card, so she should not be able to participate as an attacker or defender in Power challenges.

Can someone please help clarify?

Thanks in advance for your time and assistance.

It refers to power tokens when referencing an opponent who has more power than you.

As far as when you can trigger it, you can use her ability during any player action window during the challenges phase. This is regardless of whether a challenge is happening and regardless of whose turn it is to be the active player.

General things that we can then apply to Shae:

> Unless a card effect specifically says otherwise, the icons on a character only matter when declaring that character as an attacker or defender in a challenge. In fact, if an icon is removed from the character while they are participating in that challenge (i.e., after they have already been declared as an attacker or defender in an INT challenge, someone uses a "loses an INT icon" effect on them), they still count their STR toward winning/losing the challenge -- because having the icon only matters for declaring, not for resolving, the challenge. So the icons a character has doesn't put any limits on when its abilities can be used.

> When a character ability starts with "Challenges:", it can be used any time a player can take an action during the challenge phase - whether there is a challenge currently taking place or not.

> When card text uses the word "power," it is referring to the victory point counters. The crown symbol will be used when referring to the POW icon, and "total STR" is the term used when referring to how much a player counts toward winning or losing a challenge.

SO: applying all of that to Shae, her INT icon tells you nothing about when you can use her ability. You are not limited to using it during an INT challenge. You are not even limited to using it during a challenge at all. All you need to know about when you use her ability comes from the word "Challenges," which means "any time during the Challenge phase you want." (In my experience, most people use her before their opponent initiates their first challenge of the round so as to kneel the most powerful character they can before it attacks them.)

Similarly, you need to meet the play restrictions of her ability, saying she can only kneel characters controlled by someone with more "power" than you. This has nothing to do with the POW challenge or which characters have the "crown" icon, but rather the current victory point counts. If you are currently winning the game (i.e., have the most points), you won't be able to use her.

Hope the general info helps with the next card that comes up (because there is always a "next"card, no matter how long you've been playing.)

Thank you very much for your very helpful replies, ktom and stormwolf27.

With regards to "more power", we have played different variations of this - from power on the house card to all power

We currently use all power but should this include power that does not count towards the winning total - i.e. Widows Wail

I take it power on characters would count whether the blocking Melisandra is in play or not ... so I wouldn't say "all power that counts towards victory"

"More power" mean you compare the current, total points toward victory.

This includes power on House cards, characters, non-characters with Infamy (re-read the definition of Infamy if you think the power on Widows Wail doesn't count toward winning), or any other power made applicable to victory total by card effects (eg, Mance for captured Kingdom locations). It does not include effects that raise or lower the amount of power you need to win. It would also not count power that is not counted toward victory total.

I will go and reread infamy ~ that's in the core rule book not the FAQ

I thought Infamy was just an ability which happens to allow you to put the power somewhere else

i.e. it does not imply that any power collected via infamy is automatically counted towards the final total

I think that discussion originally came about due to Mance - as Mance specifically says power on kindom locations count towards the victory total ... implying that without Mance, power on those locations do not count towards victory

Likewise the new Greyjoy location, Iron Islands refers to the power moved onto it as counting towards the victory total

Both of these re-inforced the thinking that it is only power on characters and house cards that count towards victory, unless otherwise specified

Power on Kingdom locations counts towards their controller's victory total. If it is Winter, Mance Rayder gains: 'Response: After you win a challenge in which Mance Rayder participated, take control of a Kingdom location

controlled by the losing opponent. Then, that location claims 1 power.'

Power on Pyke counts towards your victory total.
Any Phase: Kneel Pyke to move 1 power from your House card to Pyke.

I assume if Mance leaves play that power on Kingdom locations no longer counts

"Non-Character with Infamy" - hmmm ....so you could use Frozen Solid on Widows Wail and any power on it stops counting towards the total

House Stark only.Attach to a non-limited location or attachment.Treat attached card as though its printed text box were blank

Both of these re-inforced the thinking that it is only power on characters and house cards that count towards victory, unless otherwise specified

And that is a correct but not sufficient statement.

Power on house cards, characters, and cards with the Infamy keyword counts towards victory. Since Pyke and the locations stolen by Mance do not (necessarily) have the Infamy keyword, it was necessary to make it explicit that the power on them does count towards victory.

EDIT: It won't happen often that you have power that does not count towards victory on any of your cards. It's possible, but exceedingly rare. When it does happen, a change of card type is usually involved. Possible examples are the Shadow Hatchlings and the Banner characters. They might enter the game as characters, gain power some way or other, and then become duplicates resp. attachments. In those cases, the power stays on, but it doesn't count towards victory any longer.

EDIT 2: Yeah, blanking the Infamy keyword would also work. Your example with Frozen Solid and Widow's Wail is valid.

To quote the basic rules - House Specifc Keywords

When you claim power or move power to your House, you may place it on any card with the "Infamy" keyword instead of placing it on your House. Power on a card with "Infamy" does count towards your victory total, regardless of the card’s type.

And there you go. All the cards you cite demonstrate the fundamental game mechanic that power on non-character, non-House cards does not count toward you victory total unless otherwise specified. It's just that the definition of Infamy includes the "unless otherwise specified" - something the earlier reference to Widows Wail implied that you had missed.

Yes - this seems to be a bit of problem with rules / text I read ages ago, or cards that are regularly in play ... parts of the rules or text get overlooked

An example is the Hollow Hill agenda .... I was beginning to suspect that we had forgotten that income bonuses on cards do not count ... then the next game my opponent actually reminded my to take my extra gold!!!

is there some refresher course I can go on?