so if your character is 2nd rank but due to non career advances is not in his 2nd career can you still train a skill for the 2nd time or do you have to wait till the new career??

You should be able to train the skill again. It says in the book that a skill can be trained once per rank, so I think that it's not connected to your current career.

yea thats what i was thinking but wanted a 2nd opinion

thx

To me is no, because you has finished your advance options of that career.

Sebashaw said:

Even without buying Out of Career advances you cannot complete a career without hitting second rank. 10 XP is second rank and you need to spend 10 advances in a career & 1 more for the dedication bonus to complete a career, thus you have to be second rank to be in a second career if you competed your first one.

I agree with Chaos85, on your 10th XP it is entirely within the rules as written to buy a second 'point' in the same skill you trained earlier.

Is this for Klaus?

Don't think I'm not onto you Klaus, you daft pyromaniac.

lol yea it for klaus was thinking of taking a second dot it ether discipline or resilience not sure yet maybe both i still have 2 open slots left before i can change careers

What's your willpower like? I think all the signs point towards a second dot on Resilience. (Look at us talking like we're playing old school VtM) It allows you recoup wounds like a good thing as well as get rid of those pesky crits. Plus there are a few actions that allow you to make attacks based on it...

true will is 3 with 1 fortune atached to it im leaning for resilience .... just realised i cant take both tho i can only take 1 more skill per career card hmm..

Matchstickman said:

So, do you take a non-career advance to train again a skill?

As long as the skill remains on your career skill list, it is an in-career advance.

No, because if you are rank 2, you have finished all yours 10 career advances.

Sebashaw said:

?

You finish your career (and open up the dedication bonus) by spending 10 advances in the career, how can you possibly spend 10 advances without first accruing 10XP?

0-9XP is rank 1

10-19XP is rank 2

Therefore you must spend your 10th advance of that career in a different rank to the one you started in, which would allow you to buy a second 'dot' in a skill you had already trained this career.

to clarify i have 10 xp total (rand 2) i used 8 career advances and 1 non career(cost 2 advances)

so i have 2 more open advances and then the dedacation bonus ......so rank 2 still in 1st career sry didnt think it was that canfusing of a question just wanted a 2nd opinion before i put a second dot in a skill

Ok, now I've understand your position.

Yes, you can.

Just to clarify what I think angrydragon has already pointed, there are two limits to training skills:

- you are only allowed to train any given skill once per rank;

- you have a limit of how many skills or specializations you can train / buy as an open advancement at any given career.

As for career and rank, if you only spent advancements on a given career, and only in career advancements (opne or closed), you will still have 1 advancement to spend on that career as rank 2 (because experience and advancements are different things). thats exactly what Matchstickman wrote. But as you can also spend advancements as out-of-career, and, specially as Reikland human, you can move to another similar career to spend some advancements there, you could be well beyound first rank before finishing your most explored career.

In my group I'm kinda stimulating my players, as they are all Reikland humans, to move into different but similar careers to spend some advancements there if they want to increase a characteristic that is a primary one on that different career, or a skill. but it necessarily has to be translated into gameplay, that is, the character has tu actually acquire a new profession or act in the world inside that realm of activities.

Other than that, I'm allowing my players to spend out-of-career advancements (with it's normal greater cost) to be able to increase career stuff that they wouldn't be able because of career completion or advancement limits. That including characteristics, if a player doesn't want to use his in career advencemnts slots for that (it still costs him more, nevertheless).

I look at it like:

You may advance a skill once per Rank. This is regardless of any in or out of career advancement. The avoids people lilly-pad hopping their way through careers to get Weapon Skill fully trained before the higher ranks set in.

You may advance a skill on the career card one time and then it is effectively burnt for the remainder of your stay in that career. This is regardless of rank. This keeps people from camping in a single career. Go forth and grow young adventurer.

In the OP's situation it is important to note the following quoted bits from the "Non Career Advances" heading (pg 45 of the player's guide):

"Characters have the option to acquire skills and abilities OUTSIDE their CURRENT career by spending additional advances. However, spending advances on skills on skills and abilities NOT LISTED on the career card do not count as advances spent toward completing the character's current career.

+ 2 Advances: Train a basic skill OUTSIDE the character's current career

...snip...

+ 4 Advances: Acquire an advanced skill OUTSIDE the character's current career

+ 4 Advances: Train an advanced skill OUTSIDE the character's current career. Note, the advanced skill must be aquired first."

I bolded the parts that I felt were key. So if a skill is listed on a career card and you purchase training/acquisition as part of your advancement that skill is locked down for further training even if you rank up. This is to keep someone from sitting in a basic career and purchasing out of career advances in order to rank up and then train the same skill over and over (inefficient though that may be). If you want more training in that skill you'll have to hop into a career that has it listed or purchase it in the next career as a Non Career Advance.

That being said, I'd actually allow someone to purchase an out of career skill at rank 1 and then when they achieve rank 2 they could pick up training in that skill again. I figure they're already gimping themselves by spending so many of their advancement points that it doesn't bilk the rules.

TLDR; Anyone can play the game anyway they like. It's all in where you put your emphasis in the rules :-)

Callidon said:

TLDR; Anyone can play the game anyway they like. It's all in where you put your emphasis in the rules :-)

[/QUOTE]

I'm glad you wrote it, I sure can comply to that! :]

Personally I don't understand that a skill is locked for a career after it is bought. As any career has a limited number of skill advancements, I leave to my players the option as to how spend them: if they think their characters are better of specializing at any given skill instead of learning more things, that's sure to bring some difference to the game.

That's quite the same reason behind me letting them stay in a career longer than they have to if they want. I tend to be too much of an opiniated GM. I usually do feel I know what's best for them, what's more fun. So I try to act opposite from that. I find that the better they get in control of their characters, as long as they can translate that ro the story, the greater the gaming experience is for all of us.

And, of course, as you've putted so well, that is iust what seems to work for us. :] Good gaming!

Callidon said:

Sorry to come back to this topic again but what do you mean by 'camping' on a career?

Once you have bought the 10 advances (6 open and 4 fixed) every other purchase whether it is on your career sheet or not is considered a non-career advance, what advantage is their to sitting in the same career and not spending your advances?

Matchstickman said:

The only main advantage I see is for role play purposes, mechanically I guess it's easier to advance characteristics but it's a bit power gamey for a guy to pick pit fighter then go from strength 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 . For story purposes it could work but it's a slow process for the min maxer, he'd want to get as many careers in as possible to maximise his skills.

angrydragon said:

No you can train that skill no problem, GM approves.

well that makes it easy.......thank you

Matchstickman said:

The only reason other than roleplaying I see now is when you have a wizrd PC, who can't pass to a non-wizard career and back without having to pay at least 1 advancement each passing, wants to increase one of his characteristics, specially his primary characteristics without having to occupy all or many of his open career advancements slots to do that - I have a player who is uncomfortable to do that because he wants to use his open career advancements to get as many actions, skills, fortunes, wounds and talents (more or less in that order) as he can. So I would permit him raising even one of his primary characteristics for that career as a non career advancement, if he agrees to pay the extra advancement for that.

I actually have a lot of reasons to permit that given what's happening with my group, but I don't think that's so interesting no - ask me if any of you want to know, please.