Muemaken's result were based on a single Core set. Obviously, using more copies of Unexpected Courage just makes the deck even better. But that's why I want to try his versions. I've played "draw your whole deck" before, but using 3 Core sets. I want to see how effective it is without those extra UC. Also, my version was mono-lore with Bilbo, Beravor and Denethor and depended on peeking at the deck (I played this version at the time of CatC). I want to try the concept with a multi-sphere heroes deck.

Leptokurt: I think the point of this specific challenge was to "prove" it was possible to beat consistently the JtR quest with a "restricted" pool of cards, which Muemaken seems to have done. Booored's restrictions didn't include a "don't use Beravor" clause.

To each challenge its own rules. I don't see why we should prevent ourselves from using winning strategies when playing what amounts to an online tournament.

There is 2 other "events" run of this board.. . This is kind of a one off, though if i think of other super hard challenges I would.. but you are the only person to do it as he used a banned card in his deck and the other 2 submissions only played a single game.

booored said:

Oi, I submitted 4 games results!

really? how did I miss that?!! Hang on ... when I get home from work I'll go though the threads and make a compiled list.. sorry man.. that is pretty lame of me to miss that.

Right, Game 5 lost in 9 turns.

Couldnt find any Lore of Imladris or Athalas only streams of unpleasant event cards.

That gives me a 40% win rate over 5 games

Well, I I need to re-think this and start from scratch... I believe I have built a deck that is as good as possible be given the restrictions AND the direction I chose for deck building. I will go though the deck and explain it.. and with a few modifications though the addition of the cards from the entire Mirkwood cycle, witch are banned in this challenge, this deck and the strategy that goes with it reaches, nearly, a perfect win ratio.

Still, ironically the fact that this deck is so "safe" is also its downfall, and strange as it may sound a more risky deck, might have a better chance of seceding with a higher win ratio. I know that sounds off.. but bear with me. You see this deck is designed to cope with the crazy when revealed effects in this quest, the 2 super monsters (Spawn and Chief) as well as the Condition Attachment effect and shadow effects. So this deck fears not all that crazy draw. It is meant to cope with these upsets, and it copes VERY well. Running this deck properly is a bit complex, as you need a honed threat assessment, but you are fairly certain to always get to near the end of 2B. The problem is that by being able to cope with everything, it is also weak in other key areas, areas you can not shore up with out making it susceptible to surprise draws. This was frustrating the hell out of me, and I have come to the conclusion that the way to get around this is to build a deck that IS open to disaster on certain draws. Rather than trying to be able to cope with everything. My hope is that by completely ignoring some threats I will increase the chance of winning when those threats do not show up.. meaning a guaranteed loss if they do, but if they do not .. maybe more chance of a win... As the threats are spread out and rareish... I think there is the possibility of increasing the win ratio by doing this.. by doing what is essentially building a "worse" deck.. pretty interesting I think..

Here is the deck that I have been running, and would greatly like any input you care to give....

Heroes

(T) Legolas

• This guys is in fact the key quester of this deck, though enemy kills using his ability combo'd with duel Blade of Gondolin. He can bock and attack those common bats and crows, as well as cast key Tactic Sphere defensive tricks, like Feint and Winged Guardian.

(S) Eleanor

• She is the real hero in this deck, her ability to cancel the treachery cards is key. Nearly every single treachery will end the game in one move. We are only allowed 2 Test of Wills, and 1 Tomb, so using these cards just isn't enough. In my test games drawing 3 treachery in a row was common. I honestly can not see how this quest is even remotely achievable with out her. As well as canceling, she is able to speed up the encounter deck draw, as each cancel draws a new card witch is critical to getting those healing objective cards.

(L) Bilbo Baggins

• This guy is a card draw machine. I strongly feel that with Elenore as the UC target, for treachery canceling and only one UC able to be used, that Bilbo far exceeds Beravore for card draw. As he can draw an extra card every turn regardless of how you use him, in the long run over the course of the game he will always draw more than Beravore, though it is true that if you play Beravore correctly (as in tapping at end of turn) you can draw your 2 cards then, 1 from refresh and have the ability to draw an extra two strait away when you are digging for a card. This is Bilbos weakness, he speeds up card draw but he is not a digger, and if you get to the end of the quest and haven't the heals, each turn putting 2 wounds, Bilbos effect can not really cut it. Still, with Legolas defending or attacking and Elenore untapped for treachery protection, you want your 3rd hero questing all the time, with makes Beravore tap ability useless. So that is why Bilbo

I'll list the deck at the end.. but first lets talk strategy.

3x Westfold Horse-Breaker

• Is a gold mine... at cost of 2 you get 1 will. That isn't much.. but remember the encounter deck starts at 1, and reveals 1 at a time, so after you can quest for around 4-6... that is ALL you need to keep on top of the questing. What is great about this character is that you can discard it to untap Elenore to get an extra cancel running, or for a surprise attack by un-tapping Legolas. This card is a life saver, so much utility and I can not count the times it has completely saved the day.

1x Henamarth Riversong

• As we can only use 1 copy of core (I own 3 btw) I am shocked at how hard this game is with only 1 copy of this complete legend. Being able to see what is coming in the encounter deck is just ... I dunno.. I can not express how great that is. Easily THE best card to get near the start of the game. So integral to the deck, that I have even placed a stand and fight in to bring back Zombie Rivedrsong in the late game.

2x Miner of the Iron Hills

• There is a condition attachment that stops you form untapping. These guys simply let me get rid of it. You can also sack this guy in a ground attack if you wish to bring him back with Stand and Fight. 2 is possibly too many copies as it is a rareish occurrence, and is an example of what I was saying at the start about this deck being "too" prepared.

2x Forest Snare / 2x Feint

• There is a Chieftain, a Spawn and 2x Dol Orcs in this set.. The 1st 2 will wreak you, though I have removed them a few times, but the Dol Orcs even though easy to kill get 2 shadow cards, and the shadow cards are deadly. There is the +3 dmg to Wilyador card.. witch effectually decreased your clock in the game by a turn.. and there is the +1 Wound to all exhausted Characters this kills most allies.. and you have to remember that you tap to defend, so often this will kill the defender, leaving the attack undefended.. brutal. Then there is also the +1 dmg to all wounded characters.. again.. this can wipe the entire board. So the Dol Orcs, are in fact more scary to me in some ways.. they are seen more often and the shadow effects are very scary. Still with the snare and feint even unstoppable monsters like the spawn can be dealt with pretty easily.

2x Sneak Attack / 1x Gandalf

• Threat is not an issue in this quest.. if you get to 50 threat.. it is game over anyway. There simply isn't time for threat gain to be an issue. Still, one of the great problems in this quest is having being ready to win but not having the healing, and sneak attack Gandalf for +3 cards is super cool. You only need to dig in your deck near the end, so we can rely on Bilbo to draw our Gandalf by then we have the sneaks and a instant 6 cards.. right when we need them most. I'm currently adding 2 Radagast, 1 Gandalf, though 2 will increase the draw chance of this combo.. but in all honestly, I have rarely needed Gandalf for anything else. I feel that there is a good chance of him being in hand at the end of the game when you need to dig.

Minstrel, Steward + Songs.

• Well, Steward of Gondor is, well.. it is Steward.. we want this cards as soon as possible. The 3xMinstrels allow us to get the song of kings out at a decent speed with out filling our deck with songs. They also quest for +2 .. witch is awesome. You want to place Kings on Legolas. There are few tactic cards, so he finds it hard to spend, until Winged Guardian gets out and then he starts spending a resource a turn almost, so his resource gain really slows. There are cards that key of attachments, so it is also important to get an attachment on all heroes. Then get Steward and Song of Lore on Elenore. Getting the song on Elenore allows you to cast the higher cost lore cards faster, and steward helps that as well, but also it allows you to often have spare spirit for test of will and Hasty stroke.

Basic Usage

• I can not teach you in this post how to play the deck.. just try it out.. You want to NEVER quest with Elenore and use her ability to Cancel and speed up the encounter draw. Questing is mainly achieved though Legolas until mid game when your Minstrels and Rada is out. Save the Escorts for mid game to do super questing +4 for 2 mana.. early game you want Horse Breaker instead to give utility to your heroes. To kill Crows in one turn you need to attack with Legolas AND Wilyador. Wilyador can defend bats most times with no damage. Save Hasty Strokes for +1 dmg shadow cards to taped/wounded. Test of will you will want to cast a lot.. try and resist.. rule is if you can survive the card.. do not use it. When a card comes that will kill you, you want to have ready, like say +2 dmg to one questing character for example... Speaking of that.. play careful.. try to keep 1 resource on Spirit at all times for cancels and on tactics to keep your Guardian alive.

So yeah.. that is the main deck... here is the deck list as well as the scratch pad.

Tactics

3 Winged Guardian
2 Blade of Gondolin
2 Feint

Spirit

3 Escort from Edoras
1 Lorien Guide
3 Westfold Horse-Breaker
3 Ancient Mathom
1 Unexpected Courage
2 A Test of Will
2 Hasty Stroke
1 Stand and Fight

Leadership

2 Steward of Gondor
2 Sneak Attack

Lore

3 Daughter of the Nimrodel
2 Gleowine
1 Henamarth Riversong
2 Miner of the Iron Hills
3 Rivendell Minstrel
2 Forest Snare
2 Protector of Lorien
3 Lore of Imladris

Neutral

1 Gandalf
2 Radagast
1 Song of Kings
1 Song of Wisdom

Scratch Pad

Horseback Archer - To expensive, once winged guardian is out, he builds resources so slowly.
Erebor Hammersmith - The discard attachment shadow card is rare.. only 1 instant in entire deck.. this is over kill.. best to just hope you do not see it
Haldir of Lorien - To expensive
Longbeard Map-Maker - Hard choice.. still undecided... While his ability is crazy, I just never seamed to have the resources to exploit it.
Celebrian's Stone - This is very good, but 1 card only allowed.. drawing 1 card in 50 is so random, you want it early and just can not reply on that.. I feel it is best left to make room for something with more utility i can count on.
Dunedain Mark - undecided as well, 1 more attack dose allow Legolas to kill crows in one go alone.. that makes a big difference. This can be placed back in...
Valiant Sacrifice - Card draw is so important in this quest, if you do not get your Heals, you will not win. Still, I found that this deck dealt with everything so well, I nvr really go to use it.
Dwarven Tomb - again, only 1 copy of this card.. seams hard to bank on. Sure it is basically a "wild" card for anything in the yard.. but in my most of my games when running it IF i drew it.. it was nvr used. Still there are good arguments for this card.
Infighting - With the snares this is a great way to deal with Hummer Horns and other stuff. Simply snare Spawn or another high life creature and slowly load her with dmg, then you can instant kill creates coming off the encounter deck. In the long run though I felt that sneak attack and Gandalf was a better choice.
Lorien's Wealth - Card draw .. said it a few times already.. but yeah.. it makes or breaks this quest.. I decided to drop this for the sneak attack Gandalf thing die to that affectingly costing 2 less for the same effect as well as Gandalf having "other" uses.
Strength of Will - I tried hard to get this card to work.. and when it did it was awesome, still in most cases I nvr got to use it and it was a dead draw. The idea is that as Elenore is not tapped during questing, if there is no treachery to cancel you can tap her and cast this for 0 and add 2 tokens... all good in theory.. but the reality of the convergence of not having her tapped and traveling at THAT same time.. and having the card in hand seamed to be hard to pull off.

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So.. yeah.. this is my deck and the deck ideas... why do I think I need to go to drawing board? Well.. as I said the win ratio is pretty low.. I think I can do better.. one of the biggest problems is Legolas. While he allows me to deal with Bats and Crows (remember Wilyador can not even dmg crows) if there are no enemies getting pulled.. then it is game over, also if you are trying to stall the game to find the healing, then his ability and the blades will make him unable to attack anything, again.

I have been having a great time tying to build this deck and think this is a pretty decent attempt at this challenge. I am going to start again fresh with a completely new deck idea... I'll get back to you.

Pretty much like your deck, Tragic, although I would do some things different. I agree with you about Legolas, he's absolutely shining in this scenario. Eleanor seems like an obvious choice so I'm ok with including her, especially as this gives you access to the spirit resources. In my deck I replaced her with Denethor, who is not only able to deflect those treacheries, but also enemies that you don't like to meet with. But as much as I love Bilbo myself, I think this scenario calls for Glorfindel. He give you WP + attacking strength, he can take some undefended attacks and other damage stuff (DG Orcs) and he is able to heal that damage. Yes, this means a smaller cardpool, but if you'd add more Gandalfs you'd be able to get more cards in your hand (especially if you can play Ancient Mathom).

Playing a dual-sphere deck you could also set aside the leadership sphere, but add some Song of Travel to cover the spirit sphere. Lore should provide you with enough WP in the beginning, so you can wait for a while to grab a song to play those travel cards. Escort from Edoras is gold when it's late game and you want to finish 2B ASAP after you just got dealt the needed amount of Athelas. Haldir could be played in round 2 already, so that the DG Orcs should pose no threat.

Legolas' resources will be saved for neutral cards and, attached with SoT, for spirit cards, so I agree with your apporach to add a bare minimum of tactics cards. You could even refrain from using Blade of Gondolin.

Hey Tragic, what about Bilbo, do you quest with him?
I ask this because he has only 2HP, and it is a little bit risky to do it with him.

I'm a player who likes to take this kind of risk, but want to know if this is a kind of a game-ender (does that term exists?) if he dies soon - aka turns 1-4.

Thanks.

cordeirooo said:

I think you have to use Bilbo in the beginning to make at least some progress. Tragic's deck has Eleanor to eliminate most of the vital threats, but that's unfortunatly not a 100 percent guarantee, especially as she is helpless against the DG Orcs' effect which is why I think Glorfindel is better suited than Bilbo in this adventure.

I think way to go is Denethor (critical to this scenario in my opinion), Glorfindel, and Eowyn. Initially, I used Eleanor instead of Eowyn because her treachery elimination sounds so appealing to this scenario, but in reality I never really had to use her much given I had Denethor and the spirit cards for eliminating treachery. Eowyn's quest power is useful. If you can get UC on Denethor he is very powerful in this quest. I haven't had time to play 5 times, but have won the last 3 in a row with this combo.

Curious, I haven't heard anyone talk about using the 2B quest action to take 3 cards from encounter deck and add 1 to staging area. There is a penalty of adding an encounter card to the staging area, but also a way to get access to a key Athleas card if you just can't draw one. If you use Denethor ahead of time to scout out a card then you can know if there is at least 1 "safe" card and then this seems like a viable approach to take.

RGun said:

I use this occasionally. The main problem here is that you have to add one damage to Wilyador if you do so, that's why I use this action only if I have not enough Lore of Imladris and/or enough WP to handle another location. Otherwise this is also a nice way to grab an enemy to trigger Legolas' ability . I don't use Denethor before drawing these cards though, but afterwards.

leptokurt said:

He is the guy I am trying to work out if I can cut... as I said in the break down, if no monsters appear.. he is basically doing nothing for us.. and if you are trying to stall to dig out Athelas or Imladrishis ability can loose you the game for it will advance the quest when you do not want it to.

leptokurt said:

RGun said:

I agree, Denethor is defiantly the other option. I am currently looking at him this time around, though I find the protection from Elenore to be a bit safer. As her's is a "response" while Denathor's is "action".

This means that he can scry but only at action speed, so after you commit to a quest it is to late for him to scry again. There is no action window between the card reveals. What this means is that you can not scry and see a Athelas, go sweet, I'll keep that, then quest, reveal it, then untap and scry with Denathor again before you add the guarded card. While Eleneor can protect during this window. There are other examples as well. If you complete the traveled location of "Forest Grove" you have a may event to search the deck for a Athelas and add it to the staging area, this then gets a guarded card, but there is no action phase for you to scry between placing the Athelas and drawing the card. Opening yourself to death from treachery. Another miss use people use Denathor for is scrying shadow cards. You may scry b4 the first card is revealed but with Orcs, you are unable to do so before the 2nd card.. not really related to Elenore, but just thought I would mention it.

leptokurt said:

Yes, defiantly. Glorfindel is on my list for the new deck. I am not normally a fan of him due to his crazy start threat. You are looking at a 37-30ish start threat when running this guy. Still as you say he has some good tricks on him and in honestly I think that 1 point of heal is relevant during the final push.

leptokurt said:

Card is illegal. This challenge is meant to simulate the game state when aJTR came out. From reading many posts on here and BBG at the time, I think that was when the game lost many casual solo players. The rage of 17th Knight that prompted Boored to do this challenge is a pale reflection of the outrage that rippled across BGG. Still.. we are talking about 1 copy of Core + the APs up to aJTR.
leptokurt said:

When running Elenore you are free to save the Test of Wills for this alone... .. . Still you only need to quest for 4-6 at a time if you have teh stanging area under control. So by mid game you should not be questing with any heroes.

RGun said:

Surge is another good example of Eleanor's superiority to Denathor, as there is no action window b4 the surge card is revealed, so he can not stop somthing bad coming then, while Eleanor can.

Westfold Horse-Breaker isn't of much use with Eleanor. When a Treachery is revealed, you don't have an action opportunity. You can use Eleanor because her ability is a Response, not an action. However, if she's exhausted, you cannot use the Action from Westfold Horse-Breaker to ready her then use her Response to cancel the Treachery. Thus, unless you sacrifice the Westfold Horse-Breaker preemptively, it doesn't work.

Also, Legolas's ability is a Response, so it is optional. You can still kill enemies around the end of quest 2B. Just choose to NOT use the Response ability if you're not ready to move forward.

SiCK_Boy said:

You know your right... and in fact Unexpected Courage is in the same boat, that is an action as well... this seams wrong.. have I been playing wrong all this time?

SiCK_Boy said:

Yeah... respnses are alwasy optional