As a person who lives and has grown up with the metric system, lemme tell you: 2.10 meters is not inhuman. You notice, sure, but it's not outside the human realm of possibility.

However, a more important question than debating inches and feet:

You are a citizen of the Imperium. You are an Empire fearing, loyal inhabitant of a planet. You've never seen another world, you've certainly never seen an Astartes and you do what you're told, which is keep your nose to the grindstone, your mind free of doubt and your tongue chanting in the Emperor's most blessed name.

You see a giant of a man on the streets one day. He's walking alongside a (person of clearly noble birth, a member of the Machine Cult or a member of the holy church) down the street. He's tall, covered in slabs of inhumanly perfect muscle, yet dressed in simple, unassuming clothing (possibly armed).

Do you A) assume he's some sort of vat-grown worker/bodyguard/off-worlder/mutant or any of the other countless things you've heard but probably never seen in your life, clearly sanctioned due to the person who's presence he walks in, and go on with your life, perhaps telling your friends and family of the strange being you saw today?

or B) assume he's a holy Angel of Death, a direct child of the most holy Emperor, somehow removed from his holy vestments of war and sacred bolter of righteous fury, one of the angels that can not fall, a living bulwark against the ruinous and totally not existing but very heretical forces of chaos? Walking the streets of your hive dressed as a normal person? With a (noble, tech-priest, priest)?

I'm gonna say option A seems more reasonable.

Space Marines are, in the eyes of the average (and even most not-so-average) citizens of the Imperium, nothing short of mythical, divine beings. They are loaded down with religious dogma and put on a pedestal. They are perfect, unfailing, unstoppable war machines of divine righteousness and religious fury. They are immortal, invincible and infallible. They do not fall. They do not falter. They do not fear.

The idea that your average pedestrian (or even your average Noble, Planetary governor or Tech-priest) would respond to the sight of one outside their iconic armor with unflinching terror, instant recognition and screams of "AHH, FALLEN SPACE MARINE! CALL THE INQUISITION!" is about as reasonable as to assume people in Uglyville would respond to a Calvin Klein model with screams of "HOLY ANGEL! PERFECT SERVANT OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST! CALL THE COPS!" even if said model really was an angel.

In my world, the only way you're likely to solicit that response is if said marine is wearing a wreath of solid gold and followed around by a personal team of lightning specialist to provide a Halo light effect.

The rest of the time, yes, they will be noticed as the humongous slabs of muscle they are. But there are many, far more reasonable explanations for their inhuman bulk than "SPACE MARINE!" that people are likely to resort to first. Put them in the right company (your humans) or the right disguise (Servitor) and people will let it go. Yes, they'll remember, yes they'll gossip. But, unless someone specifically goes looking, that will be all it is. Rumor, hearsay and gossip. From, at most, a few thousand people. On a planet of billions.

Both fluff and illustrations by GW are widely contradictory on that subject. This comes down to "whatever you want to believe". And I choose to believe that fricking SpEss mEHreens are 8 feet tall in armor. Whatever FFG, GW or anyone may say, there is always someone else to contradict it. Dan Abnett states the average is 2.5m. Jes Goodwin states it is 7'. FFG states it is 2.1m. I remember one book had 3m terminators. Who the **** knows? If Matt Ward decreed Space Marines were all midgets in an official codex, would you believe it? So I chose conservative, but slightly inhuman, and I say 2.3/2.4 average. I now hereby crown myself, by the powers vested in me by myself, Crown King of the Fluff and declare any opinion divergent from mine to be heretical and, quite frankly, unsound, thereby ending this discussion that has been going on for years in a hundred different places, and never conclusively finished.

Also, this. So much, this:

Reverend mort said:

K0balt said:

Reverend mort said:

Ah, I see you took the " some common bloody sense " wargear.

Reverend mort said:

I don't think anyone was claiming that 2.1m was inhuman.

Reverend mort said:

Sure, if it were only a matter of height and mass.

But a Space Marine isn't a statue - height and mass is not all he is.

Personally, I've never claimed that people will immediately be able to identify a Space Marine. But that's a far cry from claiming that they blend in just fine.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, as a combination of their size, their body language, their speed (space marines do typically have significantly faster reactions than humans) and various other factors that may be insignificant on their own all add up to shout "there's something not right about this guy". One of the Horus Heresy short stories describes the concept of 'posthuman dread' - the idea that seeing a stationary Astartes is mildly awe-inspiring, but seeing them fight or move with purpose is intensely disquieting, because they move with a speed that seems at odds with their bulk and a certainty that could be described as predatory. Reactions are likely to go from "that guy's big" to "that guy's big, scary and dangerous" quite quickly.

Again, as I mentioned before, the situation is in essence not dissimilar to the idea of Eldar moving amongst humans - sure, the height isn't too far beyond human norms, and if they're not drawing too much attention to themselves you're unlikely to notice... but when they move, their inhuman nature becomes all too apparent.

Also remember that humans in 40k are an innately psychic species, and while most people have no tangible power or conscious awareness of this psychic connection, a portion of their perceptions are defined by it - it's why Nulls freak people out, because having a lack of psychic presence is disturbing to those who perceive the Warp, even unconsciously. Space Marines were crafted by the Emperor's lore, using a mixture of magic and science for all intents and purposes to create the Primarchs and from them the Astartes. Space Marines themselves interact with the Warp slightly differently to normal people (they're somewhat more resistant to its influence, effectively), and while a normal person may not understand why their instincts are telling them that the big guy in the robes is unusual, that gut feeling (an unconscious reaction of their baseline psychic capabilities) won't go away.

Put briefly - there's enough unusual about a Space Marine that while one or two of those factors may not raise suspicions, their collective presence will if the Marine draws attention to himself.

Reverend mort said:

Good call, Mort.

All I can add to this is that if you like your marines bigger than 7 foot in armour, there are individual marines in the canon who are definitely much much larger than this. I recall a Space Wolf character from their first codex who was supposed to be enormous, and the Badab War books feature a gigantic marine officer from the Exorcists chapter who is supposed to be roughly Ogryn sized. Plus there's Blackmane the Wulfen, who grows to vast sizes when under the influence of the Canis Helix (though like every werewolf trope, I always wonder where the additional mass comes from.)

And as has been previously pointed out here, the Black Library is so rich in marine characters being described as "big, even for a space marine" that it should really be a characteristic you can buy as a starter character!

If you do like 8 foot supersoldiers, there's always the Adeptus Custodes, of course. They are routinely described as being even larger than Astartes: I can't give you a precise reference to their exact size, but I'd always felt that 8 foot seemed about right for them - though it's debatable as to whether that counts as being from the top of their skulls or the top of their pointy helmets...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I dunno. I think Mort makes a good point, really. I agree with what you say about how viewing a marine using his full abilities is sure to give the game away, but on the assumption that he's not immediately in the proces of massacring his way through a horde of opponents, I would imagine that most people, like Mort says, would simply assume that he is a very large and muscular human.

I think you perhaps overstate the case for the easy identification of marines by innate, low level psychic ability. Although a small percentage of humans have a tendency towards psychic power, and this proportion is growing, I wouldn't say that this ability is so common or command of this skill so widespread as to guarantee identification on a regular basis.

Let's think this through. What makes a marine identifiable?

• His height - 6'10" is very large, but not so unusual in any relatively cosmopolitan population over a few hundred thousand strong as to be outlandish
• His bulk - massively muscular individuals are rare. Massively muscular individuals who are 6'10" tall are VERY rare. I live in London and see people with these sort of proportions maybe once or twice a year - they're bouncers, normally.
• His appearance - some chapters just look weird. Salamanders, Raven Guard, Night Lords etc.
• His "vibes." As N01 says, marines may give off a palpable aura of threat which some may pick up on.

So how can these features be mitigated?

Well you can't hide someone's height...or can you? I recall a Dan Abnett short story featuring a Custodes character who -in a perhaps unconscious nod to Kato and the Pink Panther movies - would occasionally try to assassinate the Emperor, just to test his defences. He used a device that effectively generated a cloaking field, disguising him as a smaller and lighter "baseline" human. Cheaper options might be to do that thing where you walk around with your shoes on your knees, dig a hole etc etc...OK... those aren't going to work...

Bulk is harder to hide...but perhaps it could be disguised as fat? covered up with a layer of fake blubber. One occasionally sees guys in the 6'10" range who are muscular but overweight - think wrestlers. It wouldn't be too hard for a marine to disguise himself as a blubbery big guy.

Appearance is a trickier one, especially if the chapter is as distinctive as the salamanders. Perhaps a mask? Makeup? Hooded robes?

Vibes...like I say above, I don't actually agree that this is always such an issue.

If I had to sneak a marine onto a civilised world, I'd be thinking of disguising my marine as a feral slave (Jaq Draco used this one with Lexandro D'Arquebus in the Inquisitor trilogy), a bodyguard with vatgrown muscles (far from unknown on hiveworlds) a wrestler with fake blubber, or a servitor. Hooded robes would go a long way, too - these are common within the Imperium (it's the uniform of the Administratum.)

And at the risk of sounding overly simplistic, scale is hard to judge at a distance. By simply staying away from major population centres, moving on the fringes, a marine a mile away, wrapped in robes, moving slowly across a plain or desert in full view of normal humans, would not really attract any undue attention at all.

Lightbringer said:

All humans are sensitive to the Warp to some degree - this is stated (using different words) on page 36 of the Codex Imperialis.

A fundamental capability to perceive the Warp in a crude, instinctive and entirely unconscious way essentially reflects all human gut instinct, and effectively describes why humans of all walks of life react poorly to Nulls, Untouchables and other Psychic Blanks - while you can't put your finger on it, or explain what it is, there's something wrong with that person.

It isn't a skill. It's human nature, the inclination to judge based on things that cannot be perceived or explained, to make decisions and judgements based on instinct and intuition. In essence, that's all this is.

I never said that this would be a means of 'easy identification'. But it's a factor, one easily overlooked.

My point was in fact that no one factor may be sufficient to identify a Space Marine as something other ... but all those factors put together are certainly enough to lead someone to that conclusion.

You're confronted by someone who is noticeably taller, broader and more muscular than most people, whose motions are almost predatory in their aggression, and who feels slightly off in a way that can't be described... any one of those things might be easy to ignore, but they're all there, all of them at once, in a man who looks like he could shatter skulls with his fists and the demeanour of someone who would be willing to.

Lightbringer said:

Arguably, you're missing a couple.

Proportions are a matter related to bulk, but overlooked. A Space Marine isn't a human being, not any more, and the sizes of different parts of his body compared to one another are arguably off (afterall, their bodies have been enhanced and reinforced by artificial means), and comments in the Horus Heresy novels suggest that even their physiognomy may be subtly different from that of unaugmented humans, particularly where Astartes come to resemble their Primarch (not an uncommon tendency).

Motion is another. The way people move is something we're all aware of, even if we aren't as conscious of it as we could be. Body language is a significant part of face-to-face communication, and shouldn't be overlooked, IMO. Space Marines are, universally, beings with an enhanced propensity for violence. They're almost always described as proud and aggressive individuals, and commonly demonstrate a lack of empathy with humans that comes from being unfamiliar with a normal human life. Beyond that, a Space Marine's instincts are keyed to battlefield awareness and combined with heightened sensory capabilities and an extremely retentive memory, which will influence their actions and reactions (a Space Marine may immediately try to determine the appropriate tactics to attack or defend a location, discern the physical weaknesses of a creature, etc). It may even cause the Marine to speak quietly as a matter of course - his enhanced hearing is enough to pick up a quiet conversation amidst all manner of background noise. These are all ingrained elements of a Space Marine's person, as much as his binary heartbeat, ceramite-infused skeleton and high-density musculature. In short, Space Marines act differently.

I'm not saying that any one of these elements is enough to identify a Space Marine for any but the keenest observer. But put them all together, and somebody will notice that there's a whole lot not right about him. Avoiding attention is the best way to keep that from happening, of course, but I don't feel that this is simply a matter of throwing a sheet over a Space Marine and pretending that it's not a posthuman supersoldier.

Warp sensitivity is one thing...being sufficiently sensitive to the warp to be able to spot the difference between a baseline human and a disguised astartes purely on the basis of their warp signature is something else. I accept you're not putting it in terms that stark, you're expressing it in terms of an unconscious predator/prey dynamic, a neat idea, but I think you exaggerate the likely effect.

I would agree that there are all kinds of mysterious scientific/magickal factors at work in the creation of the astartes, but I don't think that necessarily extends to an inherent deliberate modification of their warp signature, as you suggest. Nor do I believe that an innate resistance to the warp is coded into their genes. If anything, history has shown that not to be the case. (Or alternatively if that was an intended effect, it doesn't work.)

If anything, I would say spotting a marine by their "vibes" is less to do with warp signature than by the fact that marines are going to have the same vibes as any other stone cold killer...vibes that are often misinterpreted or missed by the public at large.

That said, I do take your wider point: lots of factors, taken together, make a marine stand out from the average human. Logically, I have to accept you're correct there. (And I like your thoughts on Astartes body language and proportions.)

I suppose my interest in making "disguised marines" work as a concept is that it is to some extent important for a mixed human/astartes roleplaying game! The whole dynamic of Black Crusade depends to a degree on marines working with humans. It would be a pity if every GM took the view that all attempts to disguise a marine must automatically fail; a decision which would relegate most marine PCs to combat support roles. (Again, I accept I'm misrepresenting and exaggerating your arguments to the point of absurdity...)

Lightbringer said:

Actually, it was a design concept that's been built into Black Crusade - while the Astartes are no more resistant to the lure of Chaos, the touch of Chaos (that is, the physical effects of contact with the stuff of the Warp) are less pronounced with Astartes than with mortals. It's why Space Marines receive fewer Gifts than Humans do in-game, and one of the reasons why Sorcerers always count as Bound Psykers (there was going to be a whole thing about Astartes Psykers having more capability with brute force powers than humans, but that didn't pan out past the early discussions).

@N0-1_H3r3
You have a few points. I, like Lightbringer, am somewhat skeptical of how "altered" a Space Marine's warp signature is, and how come baseline humans then don't easily pick up psykers, daemon summoners, sorcerers and genestealers too. However, your points about body language, proportions and mentality are all points I'll admit.

However, what you end up with is, in the end, a big, scary guy with a serious "sociopath serial killer" vibe. A guy not so different from the massive, cybernetically modified bounty hunters, hive gangers, sociopaths and all around combat scum you're likely to find drifting around every hive worth a ****.

So yeah. Are space marines ever gonna be subtle? No. Hell no! But are they gonna be a different kind of obvious than the multitude of weird and scary things that are an unfortunate part if everyday life in a city in the 41st millenium? Personally, I don't think so. They're gonna stand out, they're gonna be noticed and even remembered as the scary killer giants they are. But they'll get to go on their way. Nobody will panic and call the Arbites, nobody will bar their way and go "OMG ANGEL OF THE EMPEROR, SIGN MY GRUEL CUP!" and they will, basically, be explained away as just another terrifying slab of murder meat, most likely for hire.

Reverend mort said:

Stupid confused forum spirits...

See, this is why I don't bother trying to use the quote function. It will inevitably betray you!

It's hardly like a neon sign that tells you what you're looking at. It's a gut instinct that something is different or wrong, an inexplicable feeling that goes beyond observable facts. In essence, sometimes people just get hunches.

Why are people having such a hard time understanding this?

Psykers, daemon summoners and sorcerers are all different degrees of warp dabbler - they all will differ spiritually from baseline humanity. They're also innately freaky - I mean, they commune with the energies of the Warp.

As for Genestealers... well, aliens are already quite clearly something else. That inexplicable feeling of wrongness is likely to be overshadowed by the quite obvious feelings of wrongness that come from seeing, hearing and smelling it. Either that, or they'll produce that unsettling feeling of being watched or followed.

I get what you're saying, and I understand it's not an "Astartes alarm". My problem is that there's plenty of evidence of things, which should by all means have warp "feels" far more unusual than a space marine, going by in human society utterly unnoticed. Psykers are feared partially because they are just "one of us" until they start throwing warp lightning and get possessed by daemons. Yet if mankind was prone to trusting or acting upon it's instinctive "gut feel" of wrongness, psykers would be far more easy to discover. Same thing with insidious cults and cultists. Yet their entire reason for being so **** scary is because of how subtle and insidious they get. Once again, unlikely to happen if the cultists all about seduction and subtly walked around giving off any sort of wrongness vibe beyond their own possibly creepy demeanor.

As for the Genestealers, I was referring to the late generation hybrids, though I could have been more clear. These, in particular, are all about infiltrating human society and rising to the social and political top. Psychically creepy guys don't win elections. And yes, that was just for funny soundbite. I'm fully aware anyone espousing democracy is nothing short of Tzeentchian cultist in, at best, denial.

At which point, the Space Marine has drawn attention to himself. If you're trying to infiltrate somewhere, drawing attention to yourself is the exact opposite of what you want to do, particularly if you're distinctive or otherwise memorable.

And I never claimed that they'd be immediately recognised as Astartes.

Could people stop arguing against an imagined extreme, please?

Well, in my book there's a pretty big area between "attracting bypasser attention" and "attracting adeptus arbites attention", even without them being recognized as Astartes.

Yes, if you're trying to sneak into the mansion of a heavily guarded governor, standing out at all is a problem. However, my situation has always been the streets of the average hive. And yes, on those he'll stand out, but he won't be immediately noticed as a threat to the planet, an infiltrator or anything that'll have the local populace running to the friendly local shock maul and shield squad. He'll simply be noticed as yet another of the countless men and women of the world who turn to cybernetics to make them exceedingly better at hurting people. Someone to avoid, not report.

Infiltration for a space marine will never be going around completely unnoticed. It will be about going around unnoticed enough that your face, fifteen frightened eyewitness reports and your current location doesn't end up on the desk of the local Judge the minute you step foot outside a door. In essence, having a few people reason there's a new scary thug in town is not a problem. Having the planetary governor wondering why there's a space marine without arming living in a hovel in the underhive is.

Or, to put it entirely in game terms: will a space marine PC on an infiltration mission either have to sit it out, spend the entire game hiding in a hole doing nothing or walk outside and immediately turn the infiltration game into a non-stop planetary slug fest? To me, the answer is no. An infiltration game is viable even with a space marine PC on the team, without basically benching them for the evening. And that, I feel, is the actual point of this debate!

Reverend mort said:

I'm not claiming that it's 100% reliable - or, more accurately, that the minds behind them aren't 100% reliable. People misinterpret or ignore things all the time - as internet forums demonstrate. People are unreliable.

But something being unreliable doesn't mean it isn't a factor.

Unknown said:

That does depend on how you view most cults - IMO, the bulk of a cult's membership will be largely unaware of, or untouched by, the secret at the cult's heart. This also makes it particularly difficult to root out, because knowledge of the cult's nature is strictly limited and thus not easily uncovered.

Unknown said:

Traditionally, however, genestealers have some form of mesmeric capability. I see no reason why some flicker of that power wouldn't be present in hybrids, if only to facilitate infiltration.

Unknown said:

Given that you have to commit a crime against Imperial Law to attract the Adeptus Arbites, they're generally unlikely to turn up anyway.

Unknown said:

I think you view Hive Cities differently. Sure, the underhive depths and the more lawless regions surrounding those depths, are filled with violent scum of all kinds... but most of a HIve City is going to be offices, manufactorums, hab complexes, places of worship and so forth, filled with law-abiding citizens living mundane lives of mundane labour, where wandering augmetic-riddled mercenaries aren't a common sight.

Unknown said:

I think you underestimate the capability of a sufficiently-motivated Space Marine to avoid attention through stealth (it's not like they're incapable of it, particularly if they're willing to shed their armour - and I don't take the concept of "the artwork doesn't show it, so it doesn't happen" as valid, given that the artwork is meant to depict iconic imagery more than the full range of possibilities), or have at ignored the possibility in order to try and push the "blend in with the locals" angle. A big part of the Compacts structure is having secondary objectives that allow different characters to play to their strengths, which means that different characters should be at the forefront for different things, and take a step back during others.

And frankly, I really like the concept of a Chaos Marine armoured only in a bodyglove and a cloak, carrying only his combat blade, stalking through the shadows of a city, ready to pounce at a moment's notice.

I also think you've overestimated how much a Black Crusade game needs to focus on lurking in the depths of a Hive World like an evil version of a Dark Heresy group. If you're running a game where infiltrating Imperial society is such a major element, then there are obviously going to be character concepts that don't fit. Hell, after a while, the human characters may struggle to disguise themselves due to mutations (honestly, my group wouldn't stand a chance trying to infiltrate the Imperium - and the human characters are the far more noticeable ones).

H.B.M.C. said:

At some point you guys are going to have to accept that a lot of people think the idea of really big Space Marines is deeply cool.

AluminiumWolf said:

However, many also find it to be deeply silly, so it's a wash.

Ghaundan said:

Not finished the book, but it seems a heck of a lot more substantial than most adventures they have produced. The book is fairly dense with text. It looks to have a lot of work put into it, and so far I have not come across any glaring errors (and the page references actually go the right page, unlike many of the previous products). It looks like it might be very good. However, this does seem to add weight to my personal feeling that FFG really doesn't feel much of a connection to Dark Heresy and have consequently been a bit more lacklustre with that series. Black Crusade is their baby, it having no link to anything that was previously planned, and a significantly overhaul to the core system, so it just feels they have more enthusiasm for this series (resulting in the, at least at first glance, better quality product).

Space Marines are 7 foot tall. Ever since there has been a confirmed height for them that has been the measurment, and I have yet to see anything that has contradicted that. Yes there are 7 foot tall people around (though they are rare), but they are largely quite slim. A Space Marine, on the other hand, is going to be massively built, and that extra bulk (plus the extra bulk of the armour) will make them seem even bigger than their actual height suggests). Also, remember that many of the Imperium's citizens are going to be slightly malnourished, resulting in a shorter norm than today. Add the mythos and propaganda surrounding them (and the almighty mess they create when they are at work) and they could easily seem like Angels of Death.

borithan said:

This is 110% true, no matter how much either side wants to deny it now, a decade or so later.

I have to say I notice they seem to have got into a bit of a knot about not having money to keep track of. OK, it made sense to get rid of money in Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Ascension, as the quantities would be vast and/or money would be a non-issue, but it seems to have got them in a slight bind in this adventure. Ok, I accept that higher level characters are meant to be on the same kind of power scale as a Rogue Trader or whatever, ie where money matters a whole lot less than the influence you wield, but early on you are much closer to a Dark Heresy team in terms place in the world. You are a nobody and so money matters. Ok, I accept that in their setting at least an element of bartering makes sense, as it is unlikely there is going to be a widely accepted currency, but small scale transactions will matter.

For example, early in the adventure there are various times when the PCs are meant to try and aquire an item or service. Now, it could have been resolved as an Infamy check, but it isn't done that way, and for very good reasons. 1) It misses out a big opportunity for roleplaying and 2) if they fail the roll, then what? So instead the suggested method is essentially bartering items of certain availabilities. This is ok, but it does feel a bit of a work around (especially as every exchange is done this way), trying to overcome the lack of a money system. If things had set values (and PCs had money) then it just seems that section would have been much easier to write. Not even that they would necessarily just hand cash over (betting with weird "things" fits the setting well), but you would have a better idea of the relative worth.

Ok, I have just found my second typo, and unlike the first (which was "make" instead of "may", but it was clear from the context) it does confuse things slightly. On the rewards section for the first part (p.44) it says "This Experience is above and beyond what players might normally earn according to In addition...). Obviously there was meant to be another phrase in there, before the next sentence started with "In addition". From the context I am guessing the rewards are meant to be on top of the normal rewards for play time (400xp a session was it?).