No one? No one can tell me which Necron units are in this book?
BYE
Hand of Corruption is Mine!!!
Sorry. I'm moving and packed the book in a box. I know there are warriors, immortals, cryptek something (like a scientist), a c'tan shard, scarabs, and some more stuff.
A C'tan shard?! That's...That's overkill to say the least.
HappyDaze said:
Sorry. I'm moving and packed the book in a box. I know there are warriors, immortals, cryptek something (like a scientist), a c'tan shard, scarabs, and some more stuff.
HappyDaze said:
There are a few suggestions for having CSMs 'blend in' ranging from impersonation of Loyalist SMs to disguising oneself as a servitor to simply hiding out of sight (in the black decks of spacecraft and later in the hinterlands and mine tunnels in the case of this adventure). It's perhaps a paragraph and few other scattered sentences though, nothing too major.
Hmm..
the "guise of a loyalist" seems a valid option... as long as the CSM in question can alter his Servo Armor in a fitting way. A servo-armor that was retro-fitted to match to some mutations might not do the trick, so. Crap claws, anyone?
Disguised as a Servitor? This would need to be a bulky servitor. Heady-Duty model and/or combat slugger. CSM are LARGE, as far as I remember. And adding complete "fake-suits" of metal on top does not make them smaller.
The option of "staying out of sight" is one I would consider problematic as a GM & Player alike. It separates the group.
All in all, I generally say one should NOT include CSM in a game that is not "Vortex based" where the only longer contact to Imperial Space is for a raid/war OR if the CSM in Question is a member of group like the Alpha Legion (who are known from TT-Fluff to be into such kind of "loyalist impersonment".
Gregorius21778 said:
HappyDaze said:
There are a few suggestions for having CSMs 'blend in' ranging from impersonation of Loyalist SMs to disguising oneself as a servitor to simply hiding out of sight (in the black decks of spacecraft and later in the hinterlands and mine tunnels in the case of this adventure). It's perhaps a paragraph and few other scattered sentences though, nothing too major.
Hmm..
the "guise of a loyalist" seems a valid option... as long as the CSM in question can alter his Servo Armor in a fitting way. A servo-armor that was retro-fitted to match to some mutations might not do the trick, so. Crap claws, anyone?
Disguised as a Servitor? This would need to be a bulky servitor. Heady-Duty model and/or combat slugger. CSM are LARGE, as far as I remember. And adding complete "fake-suits" of metal on top does not make them smaller.
The option of "staying out of sight" is one I would consider problematic as a GM & Player alike. It separates the group.
All in all, I generally say one should NOT include CSM in a game that is not "Vortex based" where the only longer contact to Imperial Space is for a raid/war OR if the CSM in Question is a member of group like the Alpha Legion (who are known from TT-Fluff to be into such kind of "loyalist impersonment".
For the servitor guise I'd recommend keeping your power armour hidden in a crate. Save it for when the obvious uprising state begins. Until then you can do fine with some mesh or flak armour.
Good points by Reverend about uberseized servitors and the whole stuff about the Space Marines. Not sure if it has been mentioned but I would presume that a Marine should also be able to impersonate an Ogryn if needed without to much problem.
Gurkhal said:
Not sure if it has been mentioned but I would presume that a Marine should also be able to impersonate an Ogryn if needed without to much problem.
I wouldn't; at least, not in front of anyone who has ever seen an Ogryn.
The average Ogryn is around 3m tall and significantly bulkier than even a Space Marine in full armour. Just on appearance alone, there's a significant difference.
As I see it, a Space Marine moving amongst normal humans is much the same as an Eldar moving amongst normal humans - if unarmoured and clad in heavy robes or other concealing garments, they can avoid notice so long as they're not examined too closely or otherwise subjected to intense scrutiny. An unarmoured Astartes or an Eldar isn't that much taller than a tall human, but their physical proportions and the way they move are different enough to draw attention and look "wrong" in comparison to those of a human.
For infiltration purposes, a Space Marine is better off trying to avoid attention rather than trying to assume the guise of someone else - stealth rather than deception. This may require obtaining a lighter suit of armour for covert operations
N0-1_H3r3 said:
For infiltration purposes, a Space Marine is better off trying to avoid attention rather than trying to assume the guise of someone else - stealth rather than deception. This may require obtaining a lighter suit of armour for covert operations
As much as it might make sense for a CSM to be running around in something other than Power (or Teminator) Armour, it's pretty out of flavor with the setting if it happens more than once. For better or worse, the Power Armour is part of the CSM's identity rather than just equipment.
HappyDaze said:
N0-1_H3r3 said:
For infiltration purposes, a Space Marine is better off trying to avoid attention rather than trying to assume the guise of someone else - stealth rather than deception. This may require obtaining a lighter suit of armour for covert operations
As much as it might make sense for a CSM to be running around in something other than Power (or Teminator) Armour, it's pretty out of flavor with the setting if it happens more than once. For better or worse, the Power Armour is part of the CSM's identity rather than just equipment.
That really depends on the Chaos Marine's sense of pragmatism - afterall, going into battle clad in Scout Armour is regarded as a viable option for Deathwatch Marines on covert missions, and both the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords (amongst the Traitor Legions - to say nothing of the potential for other renegades and traitor Astartes of similar inclination) have strong tendencies towards subterfuge and stealth as weapons in the Long War (for the Alpha Legion, deception and misdirection are the foremost of weapons, while the Night Lords know well that the unknown and the unseen are fine tools for inciting terror). Sure, you're unlikely to see a Khorne Berserker or Plague Marine strip down for silent running, but they're hardly the only archetypes.
Failing that, give limited access to the Guerilla Warfare Talent from First Founding (as a Tier 3 Unaligned Talent, maybe pile on a few extra prerequisites as well) so they can sneak in Power Armour.
HappyDaze said:
N0-1_H3r3 said:
For infiltration purposes, a Space Marine is better off trying to avoid attention rather than trying to assume the guise of someone else - stealth rather than deception. This may require obtaining a lighter suit of armour for covert operations
As much as it might make sense for a CSM to be running around in something other than Power (or Teminator) Armour, it's pretty out of flavor with the setting if it happens more than once. For better or worse, the Power Armour is part of the CSM's identity rather than just equipment.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Gurkhal said:
Not sure if it has been mentioned but I would presume that a Marine should also be able to impersonate an Ogryn if needed without to much problem.
I wouldn't; at least, not in front of anyone who has ever seen an Ogryn.
The average Ogryn is around 3m tall and significantly bulkier than even a Space Marine in full armour. Just on appearance alone, there's a significant difference.
I thought they were just slightly larger than an a Space Marine. But I guess that spoils that plan then.
Take a marine out of his power armor, put him in heavy duty coveralls with a protective hood and all of a sudden you have a gene-bulked factory worker. Yeah he still won't look right, but by the time anyone notices him he will be gone and they will be thinking "I guess my labor tasks aren't that bad compared to what that one was made for."
Gurkhal said:
I thought they were just slightly larger than an a Space Marine. But I guess that spoils that plan then.
Reverend mort said:
HappyDaze said:
N0-1_H3r3 said:
For infiltration purposes, a Space Marine is better off trying to avoid attention rather than trying to assume the guise of someone else - stealth rather than deception. This may require obtaining a lighter suit of armour for covert operations
As much as it might make sense for a CSM to be running around in something other than Power (or Teminator) Armour, it's pretty out of flavor with the setting if it happens more than once. For better or worse, the Power Armour is part of the CSM's identity rather than just equipment.
I really can't agree with this. I play a SM in BC who never wears power armor, doesn't have power armor, uses tactics and equipment based on not wearing power armor and most likely rarely or never will wear power armor in the future.
I still think he's rather clearly a space marine, both in appearance, size, tactics, behavior and mentality.
The only REAL change so far is that I'll feel a lot less guilty about Boon of Tzeentching TK shield than I would was I wearing power armor
My argument is that the power armour is a core component of CSM identity within the setting. Consider the art in the Black Crusade book. How many pictures contain CSMs? How many of those are of CSMs out of power armour (or terminator armour)? None that can be positively identified as a CSM, and since the consensus is that CSMs out of their armour are still recognizable as CSMs, that means the answer is... none.
You can play an oddball CSM that doesn't care for power arour, but in the context of the setting, you're an outlier.
An image is worth 10,000 words... Space marine don't pass as human, something weighting 780 pounds is notable. Like a freaking elephant in a hallway.
Well it looks like passing oneself for something other than an Space Marine will be very difficult for a Space Marine and so I'm throwing out some ideas because honestly there really should be some ways to make it work.
1. If the target has never seen an Ogryn before, pass oneself as an Ogryn
2. Claim to be an Ogryn from a planet with an Ogryn population that is smaller than the norm? Yes I know this is a bit far-fetched but I'm just brainstorming now.
3. Make off as some kind of special-task vat-grown individual which should make it possibly for the Marine to pose from everything from a factory worker to a bodyguard.
4. Pose as loyalist, which is probably the easiet thing to do and especially so if the character has at some previous point served as a loyalist before he embrace the Dark Gods
5. Pose as some kind of mutant, which shouldn't all that impossibly even if it will make him stigmatized and the character is likely to be forced to keep away from mainstream Imperial society
6. Claim to come from another planet, which is true, and as long as you keep away from people that might possess knowledge and experience from the off-world Imperium most Imperial subjects shouldn't have a clue to if what you say is a lie.
7. **** discretion and go in with guns blazing!
crisaron said:
An image is worth 10,000 words... Space marine don't pass as human, something weighting 780 pounds is notable. Like a freaking elephant in a hallway.
I think those heights (but not the proportions) are a little overstated. My interpretation has always been that most marines are around 7 foot in their armour, with the armour adding about 2-6 inches to their height. This means that an un-armoured marine would be about 6 foot 6 inches to 6 foot 10 inches tall. This is the average marine of course, some individual marines are going to be a lot taller and more massive.
I do agree with Phil Sibberling on the Marine's inhuman proportions, though. And it stands to reason that they would be immensly heavy, especially in their armour. I think the phenomena of marines falling through the collapsing floors of non-hardened buildings is underused in 40k fiction!
I think there is a definite "height creep" in fan interpretations of Astartes height, with a tendency to want to portray the Astartes as bigger and bigger in order to make them more and more impressive. I think this can go too far: the whole point of Astartes is that they go to places where humans live/are capable of living and kill their enemies. That requires the Astartes to be on a broadly human scale. Once you start getting Marines over seven and a half feet tall before they even put their armour on, you're really talking about something that's on the scale of a light armoured vehicle, weighing up to a metric tonne in armour. At that size they're far too big to, for example, fit through a door.
Now the idea of a marine barging bricks out of a doorframe to enter a room is nice and impressive and all, but being that size would prevent them being effective boarding troops in space, as they'd have to laboriously cut holes for themselves into every bulkhead they pass through. And they are SPACE marines, after all.
Lightbringer said:
I think there is a definite "height creep" in fan interpretations of Astartes height, with a tendency to want to portray the Astartes as bigger and bigger in order to make them more and more impressive. I think this can go too far: the whole point of Astartes is that they go to places where humans live/are capable of living and kill their enemies. That requires the Astartes to be on a broadly human scale. Once you start getting Marines over seven and a half feet tall before they even put their armour on, you're really talking about something that's on the scale of a light armoured vehicle, weighing up to a metric tonne in armour. At that size they're far too big to, for example, fit through a door.
It's always seemed to me that there's a far more mundane reason behind the 'height creep' of the Astartes - measurement conversion.
It's an established element of the Warhammer 40,000 style guide that 40k uses metric measurements in-setting, much as Warhammer Fantasy uses Imperial measurements. However, with most of the Black Library's writers being British and old enough to have grown up with Imperial measures primarily, or American and thus unlikely to have had any major contact with metric measurements, a degree of unfamiliarity with metric seems to lead to some odd assumptions in places - namely, that 1 metre = 3 feet, rather than the more accurate 1 metre = 3 feet 3 inches. As a result, there's completely unintentional size creep occurring.
Frankly, those 3D models and the scales are wrong according to the colored SM illustration they seem to be somewhat based on.
If you look at the original scale Illustration with Jes Goodwin sitting on the ground the highest number is 8' at the top of the scale at the SM's head, but the scale actually starts at 1, not 0 so its 7' at the top. Assuming that image is still canon a SM is 7' tall in full armor with maybe another inch or two if he were standing at attention or something and not the silly "shoot me" pose that most of the illustrations and models had back then.
Weight wise. *shrug* I have no idea 790 lbs without armor puts them somewhere in the neighborhood of an average to smaller horse.
But as to the discussion of disguise. Im sure the Heretek would be more than willing to bolt all kinds of deck plating to a CSM to get him to pass as... something. Besides as its been said aside from Night Lords and Alpha Legion, I dont see most traitor legions having much use for stealth. A SM is a shock trooper, plain and simple. At the end of the day it comes down to the right tool for the job.
Send the sneaky cultist guardsman if you want something scouted.
"This is your fathers er... Traitor Marine, for when you absolutely positively have to kill every servant of the corpse god in the room."
Space Marines are not nearly 8 feet tall. It's a misconception that keeps getting repeated. They are, at absolute most, 7 feet tall
in
armour.
BYE
Dude, I see 7 feet tall people on a daily basis, and I live in France (and no, my sense of scale is not ****** up, I'm 6'3" myself, so I know what 7' looks like). So I think bio-engineered giants in armor that easily gives them between 2 and 4 inches of height can break 8 feet. Plus, all Space Marines don't have the same height. I put average Space Marine height at 8 feet, with anything between 7 and 8'6" possible, and I generally consider Power Armour adds 3 inches and Terminator Armour a bit more (because the head is not the top of the armor), like 6 inches. So anything between 7'3" and the whole 9'. Excluding freak occurences.
K0balt said:
Dude, I see 7 feet tall people on a daily basis, and I live in France (and no, my sense of scale is not ****** up, I'm 6'3" myself, so I know what 7' looks like). So I think bio-engineered giants in armor that easily gives them between 2 and 4 inches of height can break 8 feet. Plus, all Space Marines don't have the same height. I put average Space Marine height at 8 feet, with anything between 7 and 8'6" possible, and I generally consider Power Armour adds 3 inches and Terminator Armour a bit more (because the head is not the top of the armor), like 6 inches. So anything between 7'3" and the whole 9'. Excluding freak occurences.
Except that the process of implantation tends to lead to broadly uniform results - Space Marines all tend to be of similar height, build and physiognomy to those implanted with the same Geneseed. It tends to be how broad an Astartes is, combined with his above-average height - the Deathwatch Core Rulebook states "slightly over 2.1m" as the average (2.1m being just over 6'10"), with little in the way of divergence - that makes them physically imposing.
Also remember that a Space Marine in game terms is in the same size category as a normal human - it's only in their armour that they're Hulking.
Legit 7'2 vs 6'0 real world side by side comparison. Fedor is 6' 230 or so Choi is 7'2 320-350.
7' is BIG especially when heavily muscled. You can argue as much about how you THINK marines should be over 8 feet tall, but both the fluff and illustrations by GW says they aren't.
http://www.thetallestman.com/images/choihongman/choihongman.jpg
