One challenge die (plus the ones in the corner of the card) is automatically added whenever you use an action that targets the enemies defense (spells, melee or whatever). Other actions get only the dice that are in the corner plus any that the GM wishes to add.

I thought as much, thanks for confirming it.

As I understand it misfortune dice are far more common to be added to a roll rather than challenge dice, is that people's experience?

Does that then mean that an action with no vs. that has a chaos star result and no challenge dice mentioned anywhere on the action is just very, very unlikely to trigger?

Chaos85 said:

That's only true with actions that have no "vs."

• If it's "vs. Defense" then it's 1 challenge + 1 misfortune per defense.

• If it's "vs. Ability " (vs. Toughness, vs. Strength, etc) then the character compares their acting ability to the the target's defending, and adds challenge dice accordingly. See the Opposed Check Difficulties table on pg 43.

• If it doesn't list a "vs." then it's 1 challenge die, (except for Spells and Blessings, in which case it's 0 challenge dice."

In all cases you add the additional dice in the upper left corner of the card, in addition to any dice the GM warrants.

Doc, the Weasel has it right with precision. Keep in mind that there's an explanation in the official errata on page 2, which can be downloaded on the Support page of the website.

Armenian Whale said:

Ahhhhhhh!

I knew I read something somewhere but after looking through my player's guide repeatedly I couldn't find it so I thought I had imagined it.

Wait.... The FAQ/Errata contradicts one of Doc's points

Doc says

If it doesn't list a "vs." then it's 1 challenge die, (except for Spells and Blessings, in which case it's 0 challenge dice."

The FAQ says

Unless indicated otherwise, the default challenge level for Melee Attack and Ranged Attack actions is Easy (1d). Unless indicated otherwise, the default difficulty for other actions, such as casting a spell or invoking a blessing, is Simple (0d).

So that's any non-vs. action is a Simple (0d) challenge not just Spells and Blessings.

So my question

Does that then mean that an action with no vs. that has a chaos star result and no challenge dice mentioned anywhere on the action is just very, very unlikely to trigger?

is answered "Yes, it would be very, very rare in an average situation."

I think I have a handle on it now, thanks all.

Matchstickman said:

The only types of actions are Melee, Ranged, Support, Spells, and Blessings. So I suppose that means Support actions default to 0d with the Spells and Blessings. Otherwise it's the same as I wrote.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Well no. Ranged and Melee actions can also be a non-vs. action, so it's any non-vs. not any non-vs. that happen to be Support, Blessings or Magic... but now we're arguing over semantics.

I understand it now, thanks to your help.

So my question

Does that then mean that an action with no vs. that has a chaos star result and no challenge dice mentioned anywhere on the action is just very, very unlikely to trigger?

is answered "Yes, it would be very, very rare in an average situation.

Correct. It would normally have 0d challenge, and thus normally not have a chance to trigger a chaos star. Some effects, as well as GM fiat, might add challenge dice to the roll, but that would not be the norm for that action.

Matchstickman said:

Except of course on thinking about it I am wrong.

If it's a melee or ranged action it gets 1 challenge die as a default, it doesn't matter if it a vs. action or not, them's the rules (or in this case clarification in the FAQ).

My apologies for doubting Doc.

Matchstickman said:

Oh no, please keep doubting. I didn't catch the Support actions thing before.

Heheheh, great discussion, guys, great to see some people thanking each other for doubting. Creates an awesome community spirit, I think.

I guess the question about which difficulty to add at some not clearly specified actions is simply the biggest question of 3ed. Just my impression. And I wanted to give my 20 cents in regard to this.

I just think that the difficulty cathegories given, Simple, Easy, Average etc could have a more practical use. Ok, we are all wanting to have more specifications, to gain ground and security about each action. But then those terms could also be of great help. Specially when added to the explanations you gave in this thread.

Now we all know a Melee action has a base difficulty of 1d, being considered an Easy action. But then again it doesn't seems to be an easy thing to do, hit the small goblin at the end of the stairs in the rain at dark. Ok, you could add a Misfortune for every aspect in that description (and that makes me think a melee example isn't the best one). But you could also rule that the situation itself requires an Average test, ruling some of that aspects as the added difficulty, and adding the Misfortune just for some of them.

So, how easy or how hard is to climb that wall? Think of a basic description, is a hard thing to climb so many meters of a vertical wall. And then it is very cold and rainy (maybe 2 Misfortune), but the wall has some plants growing from it (1 Fortune) and you have a rope with knots (2 Fortune).

Maybe using the difficulty levels as adjectives can help the practical terms of that more nebulous situations, and I am welcoming it in my games as big help in the GMing process - specially after a step by step explanation such as this you have build here.

Pedro Lunaris said:

Hi Guys,

Hope you don't mind me joining in the conversation. Before reading this I always thought that any action that wasn't an

1. opposed check,
2. mêlée/ballistic,
3. casting and invoking

would get an average (2d) challenge level (since the description for easy is something guaranteed). Now it seems I stand corrected. As a new GM i'll have to play a few more session before even thinking of house ruling Average (2d) as the default for anything other then the mentioned 3.

Again looking at it from a GM's perspective to keep things manageable If I start adding more then 2 misfortune dice to a roll (in the dark/out numbered/wounded, etc...) maybe i'll just replace those misfortune dice and instead add an extra challenge dice.

Just got the Player's Guide and on Page 8 in "Example Play" When Brigitta does an observation check the GM ask's her to give an average (2d) check.

mokhster said:

Correct.

The action doesn't happen in combat and it's not using an action card so what am I missing? What has that to do with the topic? (It's a question I'm genuinely asking, I'm still new enough that I might have missed something)

IMHO, I believe the designers have already accounted for the basic difficulty for NON-VS action cards in the top left corners of the action cards themselves. The only one I could find that is blank is Guarded Position (and the Improved version), and considering how easy it is to focus on defending yourself it just makes sense.