The enhance on Hoyoku-sen states that "If this attack or any of its multiple copies deal damage, discard it from your card pool." Will only the original attack disapear if any of them connect, or do they all have a chance to clear themselves from the cardpool?
Hoyoku-sen
Yep. If any of the attacks deals damage, it will clear itself (and only itself) from the card pool. This applies to both the original and the multiple copies.
The difference in wording between different Multiple attacks whose enhances work multiple times versus only once isn't too clear. We know from the old Blade Nail ruling that its Enhance only works once, but Cagemaster was ruled to work for each hit.
I'm inclined to say that Hoyoku-sen will only work on one instance of dealing damage, because it says "If". Once the "If" is satisfied once, it's done. Cagemaster says "when this attack etc." so its condition will continue to persist for each of the copies as well.
Other attacks affected by this ruling:
Works once:
Blade Nail
Double Reaver (if you somehow give it more copies)
Hoyoku-Sen
Ken's Tatsumaki Senpu Kyaku EXTRA
Messatsu-Gorasen
Phoenix Arrow
Spinning Beat
Tornado Swell
Vulcan Punch (if you give it more copies)
More than once:
Blind Slap Spin
Cagemaster
Cool Hunting (which has much clearer wording)
Agreed - i was just thinking of Blade Nail when i read the post.
yes, they (the multiple copies) can all clear themselves.
...why would you post that after both Omar and I post otherwise?
btw: i'm pretty sure the effect applies to all the copies, I was referring to the effect when talking to James Hata about another ruling and he referred to the multiples being capable of discarding themselves (therefore, all copies can discard themselves).
that's the only reason why i posted otherwise, btw; not that i don't think you're right, it just conflicts with the information i was given.
vyexcel said:
btw: i'm pretty sure the effect applies to all the copies, I was referring to the effect when talking to James Hata about another ruling and he referred to the multiples being capable of discarding themselves (therefore, all copies can discard themselves).
The multiples being capable of discarding themselves doesn't automatically extend to them all being able to discard themselves after each one deals damage.
If the original attack gets blocked, and the first copy deals damage, the first copy will discard itself from the card pool, and the effect has been satisfied.
For the record, James generally defers to us with card rulings.
Ah, alright, it does make sense in comparison to those other cards.
While we're on this card, I just wanted to confirm: Multiple copies generated through Hoyoku-Sen do not receive the "Kick" keyword, correct?
Yes, that is correct.
for further clarification, since there are limiters on the ability (the "if this, then that") once the ability triggers, it resolves, and that's the end of it.
think of it this way:
an attack says "if this, or any other attack you play this turn deals damage, you gain 2 vitality"
the attack 1st attack deals damage, you gain 2. that's it, end of effect. if your 3rd attack dealt damage, it's irrelevant because the ability has already resolved.
same holds true for HK and any other ability beginning with "if" (and not specifying when the ability ends).
i now hate this game and the english language
Yes this has annoyed me too. Surely though the use of the word "it", i.e. discard "it" from your cardpool, would refer to discarding the attack that has dealt damage, as oppose to just the original? Otherwise the enhance is pretty much useless in a chun li deck that uses its multiple? Its put these attacks in your card pool, and if 1 of them deals damage you get to discard the original. woo hoo. I know this reeks of bitterness, but it is a serious question lol. Is it not just a case of poor wording?
babelfish666 said:
Yes this has annoyed me too. Surely though the use of the word "it", i.e. discard "it" from your cardpool, would refer to discarding the attack that has dealt damage, as oppose to just the original? Otherwise the enhance is pretty much useless in a chun li deck that uses its multiple? Its put these attacks in your card pool, and if 1 of them deals damage you get to discard the original. woo hoo. I know this reeks of bitterness, but it is a serious question lol. Is it not just a case of poor wording?
You misunderstand. The copy that deals damage will discard itself, just that it's the only one that will be able to discard itself. If the original attack deals no damage, the first Multiple copy to deal damage will discard itself... just that after that, the next multiple copy won't be able to discard itself anymore because the enhance will only resolve once.
Ok i did misunderstand, its still a bit annoying, but your answer now makes a bit more sense lol.