FFG is embracing Zigil instead of taking actions to stop it

By SiCK_Boy, in The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game

Posted at

leptokurt said:

Not sure why everyone thinks that Northern Tracker is game breaking. He's useless against Rhosgobel and RtM, you don't really need him against Carrock or Dead Marshes. He shines against Emyn Muil, ok, and he's a great help against HfG. WIth the new spirit cards added during the Mirkwood cycle, and the new locations that often have 3+ points to explore, he's becoming less useful as he originally was.

I do not think people think Tracker is game breaking... though he is powerful. What we are talking about is that Northern Tracker negates an entire phase of the game. The Travel Phase. When you run tracker, you simply never travel anywhere. In a multiplayer game it is not uncommon to get 3, sometimes 4 on the table, and you only really need 2 on the table to make traveling pretty much anywhere unnecessary. The reason some people do not like this is that it is changing the fundamentals of the game, removing and making unnecessary the entire travel phase. The travel phase "should" imo, be one of the key decision points in a turn when you make a decision to travel weighing negitive / positive effects vs staging area threat and possibly staging area effects. That decisions is completely removed, thus making the game degrees and degrees easier.

Oh course when you can quest for 15 a turn just off a single map maker card.. well in a way that completely destroys the travel phase as well. "Go Miner!" :(

starhawk77 said:

Since tournaments will supposedly feature entirely new scenarios, those encounter decks could feature all kinds of nasty ways to destroy the Miner or otherwise prevent resource acceleration.


I didn't think of that, but I guess that was what Massing was, and it would also give them a new print on demand product each time as well.. this could very well be true. Though the "supposed" torny scene is not much of an issue to me personally. Still if this is true they could design spesific quest to ruin common strats, but this might be unfair?

SiCK_Boy said:

If you don't have him, you can also try a quick Gandalf sneaking in to let you draw 3 more.

wow, you know I totally forgot about his 3rd ability. I use him for threat almost exclusively but sometimes use the dmg.. but I have nvr once used his card draw.. and in fact totally forgot about it lol

SiCK_Boy said:

I just ran through the whole gauntlet and, score wise, I did a better average than what the quest log is showing for the community, but I can't say how reliable that is. It's true that the tournament scoring system may eventualy rule Zigil out as a winning strategy, but I doubt it. The deck runs fast: when you get 20 resources in a couple turns, you play all your hand quickly and you can certainly beat the encounter deck in a minimum of time. The only tournament rule I could see preventing the use of Zigil is if you can't make up your team in advance, but need to pick your deck in advance (because 2 players with the same miner support deck obviously wouldn't be able to win).

In 2+ players.. I do not think it is even possible to loose, when you have a full card pool to choose from. I have also been playing it solo and it works fine there as well, I haven't lost a single quest so far, apart from RETURN due to he extremely fast clock it has though a small change to a more rabbit style deck finished that off. I think it was you who said it.. but the "one deck to rule them all" search is pretty much over for 2 player, and almost solved for solo. Oh that solo quest includes Dol GolDor, I mean who cares if you only have two heros when you can get Beorn + a tracker out in turn 1 even with 2 heroes?

Posted at

You know what i want to say dudes. I love this disscus...... Cose when i start to talk about problem of the game 4 or 5 months before and pointed some stupid mistakes of designers most of the players has talk: Hey Gaurung you talk to much and game is great, if you dont like just dont play. But now is see more and more players start to see all this problem and wake up more and more...... We like the game we just want to make it better. And is going right way.........

Posted at

I agree with comments on Ziggy's power, but what no one has seamed to comment on is that he is super fun to play with... The Ziggy deck is powerful, but fun, and that is what a game is for; to have fun.

You can custom the game to fit your own challenge level, run a self made ban list or rule thing like booored... but imo... Ziggy is awesome fun and that card and this deck alone has made me replay the entire LoTR game from scratch, going back to quests like Gul DulGor witch I haven't picked up from the original days of core..

Ziggy is fun.. so he is awesome... do not like him, do not play with him.

This is Kent Brockman and that was my 2 cents.,

you guys take it to seriously

Posted at

TragicTheBlathering said:

I agree with comments on Ziggy's power, but what no one has seamed to comment on is that he is super fun to play with... The Ziggy deck is powerful, but fun, and that is what a game is for; to have fun.

You can custom the game to fit your own challenge level, run a self made ban list or rule thing like booored... but imo... Ziggy is awesome fun and that card and this deck alone has made me replay the entire LoTR game from scratch, going back to quests like Gul DulGor witch I haven't picked up from the original days of core..

Ziggy is fun.. so he is awesome... do not like him, do not play with him.

This is Kent Brockman and that was my 2 cents.,

you guys take it to seriously

Totally agree. If you have fun obliterating scenarios with Zigil Miner, then more power to you. I have fun using him, so I play with him. When I no longer enjoy using him, I will stop. The card itself might need to be addressed come tourney time, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

Posted at

The possibility of generating an infinite number of resources in just on phase seems a little overpowered, but nobody has to play like that. And I am sure as we eventually see a tournament environment they will address this in some way.

Posted at

Glaurung said:

You know what i want to say dudes. I love this disscus...... Cose when i start to talk about problem of the game 4 or 5 months before and pointed some stupid mistakes of designers most of the players has talk: Hey Gaurung you talk to much and game is great, if you dont like just dont play. But now is see more and more players start to see all this problem and wake up more and more...... We like the game we just want to make it better. And is going right way.........

Than you so much for your seer visions. You enlighten us all.

Posted at

leptokurt said:

[....]

That's especially true if you stick to play with one coreset only - and I really hope they design the game for those who use one coreset only, cause that's the way it's meant to be. Using one corset even Beravor isn't overpowered, as you have only one UC in your deck. You only have two copies of SoG and GG etc.

Getting yourself an extra advantage by using more than one coreset and then complaining that the game is way too easy I do find hilarious. gui%C3%B1o.gif

I cannot stress how much true that is guys...honestly, I think the FFG did not setup rules to limit for instance UC or SoG to one card per game because they would not imagine that some people would acctually just buy another one or even two core sets to:

1.break the game

2. have those unique cards 3 times in their deck (maybe there was a REASON behind the fact, that they were included only ONE time in the core set, don't you think?!)

No offence, but just sell your 10 excess core sets and it will save us all those "game is too easy..." "Nothern Tracker game breaking..." discussions.

Posted at

Iver said:

leptokurt said:

[....]

That's especially true if you stick to play with one coreset only - and I really hope they design the game for those who use one coreset only, cause that's the way it's meant to be. Using one corset even Beravor isn't overpowered, as you have only one UC in your deck. You only have two copies of SoG and GG etc.

Getting yourself an extra advantage by using more than one coreset and then complaining that the game is way too easy I do find hilarious. gui%C3%B1o.gif

I cannot stress how much true that is guys...honestly, I think the FFG did not setup rules to limit for instance UC or SoG to one card per game because they would not imagine that some people would acctually just buy another one or even two core sets to:

1.break the game

2. have those unique cards 3 times in their deck (maybe there was a REASON behind the fact, that they were included only ONE time in the core set, don't you think?!)

No offence, but just sell your 10 excess core sets and it will save us all those "game is too easy..." "Nothern Tracker game breaking..." discussions.

ive long argued against people giving new comers the whole GET A SECOND SET!! NOW!!!!!!! ARGGHGHHGHHGH....etc, as this gives the impression that

1.you need a second set to win, which is false

2.the game has a pay to win aspect which it doesnt

HOWEVER, i do understand the options it opens up, its nice to have 3 copies, i wish i had 3 UCs but the cost and the potential waste of encounter cards just doesnt hold up

i do have to laugh though when i see a post where people who have 3 UCs/ 3 northern trackers say the quests are too easy, and then go and house rule things, i mean if it aint broke dont fix it, and this aint broke, but yeah, i sort of cover my opinions of player competence vs difficulty of quests vs card pool vs past experience in my other debate post

Posted at

My fear about this combo is that if it indeed results in a high win-ratio, then the developers might feel to address it with harder quests or, even worse, quests that specifically target this combo. If such "solution" should come into existence, it could easily prove game-breaking for those who chose not to play with Ziggy; the whole game balance can quickly go down the toilet. And unfortunately, FFG does not have a great track record at play testing (unfortunately they make a lot of stupid mistakes); so, I sincerely hope that it will never come to that, and this topic is just alarmist! FFG is really great at designing games, but when it comes to production..., well, let's not get into that. :P

Posted at

Rince said:

My fear about this combo is that if it indeed results in a high win-ratio, then the developers might feel to address it with harder quests or, even worse, quests that specifically target this combo. If such "solution" should come into existence, it could easily prove game-breaking for those who chose not to play with Ziggy; the whole game balance can quickly go down the toilet. And unfortunately, FFG does not have a great track record at play testing (unfortunately they make a lot of stupid mistakes); so, I sincerely hope that it will never come to that, and this topic is just alarmist! FFG is really great at designing games, but when it comes to production..., well, let's not get into that. :P

mmmm, would they do that though? create a quest that basically forces you to use a specific deck and thus destroys the whole point of the game-deckbuilding.....yes it would be game breaking but i cant see them doing that....i mean they wouldnt exactly be getting any brownie points would they..more than that it would **** well p*ss alot of people off - me included .well i certainly hope they wouldnt, i havnt used that deck yet and i dont intend to

Posted at

Well, the Secrecy thing seems to go that way IF they are not worth their true price (without secrecy reducing cost).

Just hope the 5-Cost cards with secrecy do stuff more impressive than the actual 5-Cost cards.

Posted at

cordeirooo said:

Just hope the 5-Cost cards with secrecy do stuff more impressive than the actual 5-Cost cards.

i would hope so

Posted at

Won't start arguing over the merits (or lack of) of owning multiple core sets. That wasn't the point of this thread and to each his opinion on the topic (but since I'm not going around calling people names or laughing at them for NOT owning multiple Core Sets, I'd appreciate that the same courtesy be applied to those who do own them).

But the more I've been thinking about the potential abuse of Zigil Miner, the more afraid I am. Honestly, in order to make this an almost auto-win solo, all that's really missing is a good 5-cost non-unique ally. Even a so-so 5-cost non-unique ally would be great. Because right now, the main issue for the Zigil deck (in my 2 players setup) is that it can only play its 3 heroes, 3 Zigil Miner, 1 Gildor Inglorion, 1 Radagast, Gandalf and Landroval. It doesn't contain other allies, so it really counts on the second deck to provide the bulk of the questing power and army. If there were one or two 5-cost allies, it'd become more self-sufficient. Even getting "better" 5-cost spells (such as Grim Resolve) will improve the deck.

That's the main worry I have. I just don't see this deck getting worse except if they start designing quests around it. And if they do, it'll be a sign that there was a design mistake in the first place, but it'll also probably cause unexpected impact on other deck strategies.

Posted at

SiCK_Boy said:

if they start designing quests around it. And if they do, it'll be a sign that there was a design mistake in the first place, but it'll also probably cause unexpected impact on other deck strategies.

i really hope they dont, it would be unbelievably restrictive, i mean hundreds of cards, and a quest has to revolve around 1? someones not getting something right somewhere

i was really hoping to sit on the side and watch all this zigil stuff from a distance.....annoying

Posted at

richsabre said:

ive long argued against people giving new comers the whole GET A SECOND SET!! NOW!!!!!!! ARGGHGHHGHHGH....etc, as this gives the impression that

1.you need a second set to win, which is false

yeah right.. that is why new players like 17th Knight are tearing their hair out on Journey.

SiCK_Boy said:

Won't start arguing over the merits (or lack of) of owning multiple core sets. That wasn't the point of this thread and to each his opinion on the topic (but since I'm not going around calling people names or laughing at them for NOT owning multiple Core Sets, I'd appreciate that the same courtesy be applied to those who do own them).

But the more I've been thinking about the potential abuse of Zigil Miner, the more afraid I am. Honestly, in order to make this an almost auto-win solo, all that's really missing is a good 5-cost non-unique ally. Even a so-so 5-cost non-unique ally would be great. Because right now, the main issue for the Zigil deck (in my 2 players setup) is that it can only play its 3 heroes, 3 Zigil Miner, 1 Gildor Inglorion, 1 Radagast, Gandalf and Landroval. It doesn't contain other allies, so it really counts on the second deck to provide the bulk of the questing power and army. If there were one or two 5-cost allies, it'd become more self-sufficient. Even getting "better" 5-cost spells (such as Grim Resolve) will improve the deck.

That's the main worry I have. I just don't see this deck getting worse except if they start designing quests around it. And if they do, it'll be a sign that there was a design mistake in the first place, but it'll also probably cause unexpected impact on other deck strategies.

Well .. . you have Beorn... a single card that hits for 15... and costs 6. Not exactly a "bad" ally.. and with Stand and Fight you can play anything from any graveyard. (at event speed no less)

Still, I think you are right.. I haven't been experimenting with Ziggy for a while now, as I am waiting for my 3 play group to get into it, then I want to try running it.. though it is a support deck still. No question. If they drop some good 5 point allies then it will be crazy.. remember secrecy might mean a lot of high printed cost cards. Then it will get super crazy.

As for solo play, when I was testing it could thrash everything, even solo massing and Journey, with out any trouble. The only quest solo is sucked at was Return, but that quest IS broken for single player imo anyway. Still in my solo decks I am running a lot of 4 cost allies as well. BeeKeeper is awesome, I've done players were I have cast him and discarded him 3 times in one turn lol... Another great play is that Orc guy that drops 1 dmg on all orc... fantastic for Kaz... just sack him to a monster and pull back at instant speed to add more dmg.

The ziggy deck needs Stand and Fight and Will of the West to function... it is all about cycling your six 6 cost cards and stand and fights.

Posted at

booored said:

richsabre said:

ive long argued against people giving new comers the whole GET A SECOND SET!! NOW!!!!!!! ARGGHGHHGHHGH....etc, as this gives the impression that

1.you need a second set to win, which is false

yeah right.. that is why new players like 17th Knight are tearing their hair out on Journey.

so you saying you need a 2nd copy then??? do you not think that maybe becuase he/she is new? i would like to see someone who can beat journey after just picking up the game

Posted at

richsabre said:

booored said:

richsabre said:

ive long argued against people giving new comers the whole GET A SECOND SET!! NOW!!!!!!! ARGGHGHHGHHGH....etc, as this gives the impression that

1.you need a second set to win, which is false

yeah right.. that is why new players like 17th Knight are tearing their hair out on Journey.

so you saying you need a 2nd copy then??? do you not think that maybe becuase he/she is new? i would like to see someone who can beat journey after just picking up the game

I did.

I still do not believe you need another set to play the game. If you want to have a walk in the park, go ahead and buy two or three more; it's all about choice. There is nothing wrong in playing the game with just one core, as much as there is nothing wrong in playing with more than one.

Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

Posted at

cordeirooo said:


Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

if i do not think something has any merit, i do not post. i have better things to do trust me, if someone says something i disagree with i will post my opinions on it

also the majority of newcomers could not win journey off the top of their head without trying a few times, im not saying no one can

Posted at

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:


Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

if i do not think something has any merit, i do not post. i have better things to do trust me, if someone says something i disagree with i will post my opinions on it

also the majority of newcomers could not win journey off the top of their head without trying a few times, im not saying no one can

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

I still do not believe it has merits. Anyone can play anyway they want, you (or any other) do not have any authority to say how someone must play the game.

Also, I'm not telling you not to post, I'm asking a honest question and your answer does not address it. "I have better things to do, trust me" isn't enough, you're not infallible and, no, I do not have to trust you.

About the Journey... So what? I know a good bunch of people who did, and another good that don't... What's the point? :S
(Also, it's good to say that there is a mix of 1, 2 and 3 cores between this both groups of people - another evidence to the meritlessness (I don't believe this word exists, but ok. haha) of the need of more than one core to play).

Posted at

cordeirooo said:

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

Who has said this? You are making up a strawman argument that has completely derailed this thread?

Posted at

cordeirooo said:

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:


Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

if i do not think something has any merit, i do not post. i have better things to do trust me, if someone says something i disagree with i will post my opinions on it

also the majority of newcomers could not win journey off the top of their head without trying a few times, im not saying no one can

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

I still do not believe it has merits. Anyone can play anyway they want, you (or any other) do not have any authority to say how someone must play the game.

Also, I'm not telling you not to post, I'm asking a honest question and your answer does not address it. "I have better things to do, trust me" isn't enough, you're not infallible and, no, I do not have to trust you.

About the Journey... So what? I know a good bunch of people who did, and another good that don't... What's the point? :S
(Also, it's good to say that there is a mix of 1, 2 and 3 cores between this both groups of people - another evidence to the meritlessness (I don't believe this word exists, but ok. haha) of the need of more than one core to play).

i believe this has all the merit in the world, given that - and yes i have seen this done- newcomers are given false advice that is completely misleading

imagine youve just bought the game, lost alot like most newcomers do which is just natural progression, then someone pipes up and says- you should really get a second core set....what?? i mean imagine how confused that person will be after looking at the 1-2 player promise on the box. then they find out they need to fork out on another £25

as long as this advice is being given i will go against it, it is what i believe- this is an opinion forum, and without different opinions it would have no point in being here

also 'trust me' is a phrase....im not sure where you are from but in the western world everyone over 10 knows what it means, addressing it as a direct request is obviously not what you believe it to be and must be a push to get me to argue pointlessly with you -something after this post i am not going to do

last my reference to rhosogobel is regarding booreds comment about a user who is having trouble with it, and boored implied that he/she is doing so because of a lack of a 2nd core set, something, and this is my 2nd time saying this- is completely false

i am not here to argue with people, i give my opinion, and do so in a respectful manner, so i am not sure why you think i am having a meritless arugment, i am not sure what is happening to this forum, it appears you cannot post something anymore without getting a good flamin'

Posted at

Bohemond said:

cordeirooo said:

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

Who has said this? You are making up a strawman argument that has completely derailed this thread?

I have no idea what is a 'strawman argument' and I did not derailed the thread. I do not know if you are able to read any posters above mine, but, this is already at the third page and I wasn't the first one to bring this up. U mad?

Posted at

richsabre said:

last my reference to rhosogobel is regarding booreds comment about a user who is having trouble with it, and boored implied that he/she is doing so because of a lack of a 2nd core set, something, and this is my 2nd time saying this- is completely false

I'm going to move back to this thread... Good deck for A Journey to Rhosgobel

richsabre said:

i am not here to argue with people, i give my opinion, and do so in a respectful manner, so i am not sure why you think i am having a meritless arugment, i am not sure what is happening to this forum, it appears you cannot post something anymore without getting a good flamin'

do not worry richsabre your one of the best chatters on the forum.. just keep doing what your doing.

Posted at

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:


Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

if i do not think something has any merit, i do not post. i have better things to do trust me, if someone says something i disagree with i will post my opinions on it

also the majority of newcomers could not win journey off the top of their head without trying a few times, im not saying no one can

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

I still do not believe it has merits. Anyone can play anyway they want, you (or any other) do not have any authority to say how someone must play the game.

Also, I'm not telling you not to post, I'm asking a honest question and your answer does not address it. "I have better things to do, trust me" isn't enough, you're not infallible and, no, I do not have to trust you.

About the Journey... So what? I know a good bunch of people who did, and another good that don't... What's the point? :S
(Also, it's good to say that there is a mix of 1, 2 and 3 cores between this both groups of people - another evidence to the meritlessness (I don't believe this word exists, but ok. haha) of the need of more than one core to play).

i believe this has all the merit in the world, given that - and yes i have seen this done- newcomers are given false advice that is completely misleading

imagine youve just bought the game, lost alot like most newcomers do which is just natural progression, then someone pipes up and says- you should really get a second core set....what?? i mean imagine how confused that person will be after looking at the 1-2 player promise on the box. then they find out they need to fork out on another £25

as long as this advice is being given i will go against it, it is what i believe- this is an opinion forum, and without different opinions it would have no point in being here

also 'trust me' is a phrase....im not sure where you are from but in the western world everyone over 10 knows what it means, addressing it as a direct request is obviously not what you believe it to be and must be a push to get me to argue pointlessly with you -something after this post i am not going to do

last my reference to rhosogobel is regarding booreds comment about a user who is having trouble with it, and boored implied that he/she is doing so because of a lack of a 2nd core set, something, and this is my 2nd time saying this- is completely false

i am not here to argue with people, i give my opinion, and do so in a respectful manner, so i am not sure why you think i am having a meritless arugment, i am not sure what is happening to this forum, it appears you cannot post something anymore without getting a good flamin'

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:

richsabre said:

cordeirooo said:


Does this discussion really have any merit, btw?

if i do not think something has any merit, i do not post. i have better things to do trust me, if someone says something i disagree with i will post my opinions on it

also the majority of newcomers could not win journey off the top of their head without trying a few times, im not saying no one can

Actually, I'm talking about the 'you must have x cores to play'.

I still do not believe it has merits. Anyone can play anyway they want, you (or any other) do not have any authority to say how someone must play the game.

Also, I'm not telling you not to post, I'm asking a honest question and your answer does not address it. "I have better things to do, trust me" isn't enough, you're not infallible and, no, I do not have to trust you.

About the Journey... So what? I know a good bunch of people who did, and another good that don't... What's the point? :S
(Also, it's good to say that there is a mix of 1, 2 and 3 cores between this both groups of people - another evidence to the meritlessness (I don't believe this word exists, but ok. haha) of the need of more than one core to play).

i believe this has all the merit in the world, given that - and yes i have seen this done- newcomers are given false advice that is completely misleading

imagine youve just bought the game, lost alot like most newcomers do which is just natural progression, then someone pipes up and says- you should really get a second core set....what?? i mean imagine how confused that person will be after looking at the 1-2 player promise on the box. then they find out they need to fork out on another £25

as long as this advice is being given i will go against it, it is what i believe- this is an opinion forum, and without different opinions it would have no point in being here

also 'trust me' is a phrase....im not sure where you are from but in the western world everyone over 10 knows what it means, addressing it as a direct request is obviously not what you believe it to be and must be a push to get me to argue pointlessly with you -something after this post i am not going to do

last my reference to rhosogobel is regarding booreds comment about a user who is having trouble with it, and boored implied that he/she is doing so because of a lack of a 2nd core set, something, and this is my 2nd time saying this- is completely false

i am not here to argue with people, i give my opinion, and do so in a respectful manner, so i am not sure why you think i am having a meritless arugment, i am not sure what is happening to this forum, it appears you cannot post something anymore without getting a good flamin'

I'm not sure you are reading what I write, because... Well, we are agreeing, and you keep trying to make me agree with you. What?

About the 'trust me', I do understand what it means, and, the meaning of it is exactly that, 'you do not need proofs, just to take my word for it' and I do not. For a simple reason: We do not know each other. I do respect you though, that's the reason I'm discussing with you.

As someone said before, you're posting in a forum, you're going to get replies, whether you like it or not. Again, I am direct when I talk, I do not mean you no harm and really wish you have tons of fun, but I won't talk to you like I do with my gf or my little brother.

And for the last time, I do respect you, no need to hold grudges. I'm saying that this is a pointless argument because there'll be no consensus between the two sides; both have good arguments. It is nice that you stand for your point, this is very good, but I don't believe you should keep arguing for the same reason you don't want to discuss with me.

Sorry if you feel it is flaming, but it is not. :)

Posted at

cordeirooo said:

I'm not sure you are reading what I write, because... Well, we are agreeing, and you keep trying to make me agree with you. What?

About the 'trust me', I do understand what it means, and, the meaning of it is exactly that, 'you do not need proofs, just to take my word for it' and I do not. For a simple reason: We do not know each other. I do respect you though, that's the reason I'm discussing with you.

As someone said before, you're posting in a forum, you're going to get replies, whether you like it or not. Again, I am direct when I talk, I do not mean you no harm and really wish you have tons of fun, but I won't talk to you like I do with my gf or my little brother.

And for the last time, I do respect you, no need to hold grudges. I'm saying that this is a pointless argument because there'll be no consensus between the two sides; both have good arguments. It is nice that you stand for your point, this is very good, but I don't believe you should keep arguing for the same reason you don't want to discuss with me.

Sorry if you feel it is flaming, but it is not. :)

ok, no harm done, its late here and i may have read your post wrong, and if i have then i apologise, but either way i reckon we've burned this one out gui%C3%B1o.gif