Radwraith said:

Yeah. Or I kill them with a 10.000 ton anvil that drops from the sky!

@ Doc: I'm sorry if my idea bores you but it's meant to illustrate a point. If players insist on Min/Maxing to the point that the game becomes imbalanced than the GM should take steps to correct the issues! People on this thread are claiming that the RAW are broken. That's partially true! They are also OBSOLETE! Many of these same capabilities are far better balanced in RT or BC! This is because FFG has evolved the game through it's succeeding systems and left it to the players to backfit. We cannot (legitimately at least!) blame FFG for all the problems in DH as they did not write it! I would love to see a DH "Revised edition" but so far FFG has said nothing about this. All the examples of OP characters I have seen here are the result of some careful min/maxing on the part of players very similar to the types of things that I've seen in D&D! (Any ed. BTW!) While this is to expected to some extent it also falls on the Gm to work with his players to maintain balance. Complaining that my suggestion of killing the offending characters is wrong or boring seems Odd given that much of this thread seems dedicated to the Idea that it cannot be done! The 40k universe is a big place and no character should believe they are invincible! This is why characters such as inquisitors fight as much of their battles with wit and influence as they do gunfire or Psychic power! My doomsday scenario noted above could have also been avoided with good roleplaying. I find this same problem with High or Epic lvl D&D games! Many players (and especially Gm's) assume that the high level games should be bigger excercises in "kill the monster and take it's treasure". For characters at ascension level, that's what I would find truly boring!

Radwraith said:

I agree.

As I see it, the problem is not that a character CAN be minmaxed to absurd levels. If I recall correctly a low-level kobold in d&d could become infinitely powerful and a level 20 bard-build could have 100+ to his base attack (not to mention ANY wizard build). That did not mean the Kobold race or Bard class were unbalanced, or that they were disagreeable, because they COULD be minmaxed, that was never the problem.

The problem with the Primaris Psyker is that they have to go out of their way, not to outshine every single member of the team. No minmaxing is required.

Assuming the player uses the majority of the exp for advancements that fit with the quintessential psyker idea, and he does not specifically avoid all combat upgrades, the psyker will outshine most other characters, unless the psyker specifically decides not to.

Whispers In the Warp and trustworthy will let the psyker master interactions.

Cameleon and forget me (or whatever it's called) will let the psyker master stealth.

Fearful Aura and [insert half the psychic powers here] will let the psyker dominate the battlefield

Soulsight and Mindscan lets him dominate interrogation.

Glimpse offers a +30 on all skill tests.

I could keep going but there is no need to.

If minmaxing was the problem, the issue could be adressed by talking to the individual player and the issue would not be with the career. The career is broken because it leaves no room for the other careers at high level. It outshines the other characters unless the player actively tries not to.

I would continue on to elaborate on the vindicare, but I'm tired. Some other time, maybe.

Radwraith said:

My issue with this is: you are punishing the players by killing off their characters. And that's just a NO GO!

Also, if it's players vs. GM, the GM will of course always win. What's the point? If I want to kill the characters I can do so in a heartbeat! I let the planet explode. I let the sector explode. I invent an alien race that destroys the entire Imperium, no, the universe!

This thread has been about how hard it is to challenge the characters. That's something entirely different.

Radwraith said:

But they’re not.

Dark Heresy =/= Black Crusade or Rogue Trader or any other RPG. Dark Heresy is its own product line, separate and distinct from the other three. Sure, they have the same base rules, but FFG treats them as different lines. This is why there is ‘redundancy’ between each game, because each game is separate.

I don’t disagree that the rules need fixing or and I want there to be a 2nd Ed of Dark Heresy that fixes these issues, but as long as there is only one edition of Dark Heresy the rules will never be obsolete.

BYE

I agree! My response was to the number of people on the thread that seem to think that the two classes are invincible! They are not. That was my point. As I also posted; The RAW are not perfect in DH. DH was a 1st attempt at creating a Warhammer 40k RPG and an overall pretty good one for that! (Has anyone actually played the original D&D Yes I'm sort of dating myself here !) Ascension is still written to the Dark Heresy ruleset and therefore has it's growing pains built in! If you wish to balance the power of psykers (And thus the primaris) better I suggest looking up the conversion rules on pg. 280 of Black Crusade. The guidelines there are fairly simple and thus save the GM a fair amount of work. With the Vindicare I suggest a similar tactic: Use the Horde rules found on pg 348 of BC. (Also found in Deathwatch) Attacks by hordes specifically deny dodges due to the volume of fire/attacks. I would not allow the Vindicares dodge ability to overide this (Paricularly in melee) or alternatively; I would apply a negative modifier equal to the hordes size modifier to reflect the greater difficulty! Are these in ascension RAW? No. Characters in Ascension are essentially on the same playing field with Space Marines and could conceivably face similar opponents! Further; If we are complaining that the RAW do not balance correctly I would submit that you are not using the current Ruleset. Ascension as a concept is a great idea! To pin it's flaws on an obsolete ruleset that has in fact been significantly upgraded with later products is also somewhat unfair. I would still like to see the DH core rules "officially" revised to current standards but we will have to wait and see!

Zakalwe said:

There is a workaround for being on fire. In Rogue Trader, Into the Storm, pg 141: Pain Ward

"The implanted character can ignore Stun effects and involuntary actions or penalties resulting from the pain of critical damage, being on fire, drowning, and so on."

As for grappling, first they need to get into range. To avoid this, may I suggest using minor powers of "Distort Vision", "Float", "Wall Walk", or major powers of Shape Flesh (-> flyer), or See Me Not.

Personally I would favor Distort Vision:

"With this power, you disappear and your image reappears in another space no more than 10 metres away. Until the start of your next Turn, you are effectively invisible to all other creatures, defeating even sensory equipment. All attacks against you, should your position be discovered by means of a Psyniscience Test, are Very Hard (–30). Creatures and sensors that do not rely on sight are not affected by this power."

Powerful psykers ARE scary opponents. That said, I agree that Ascension escalated and brought out problems in power creep with the way it gave out unnatural characteristics. While the problems with Ascension can be fixed & houseruled, I feel that the book just wasn't properly stress-tested prior to publication.

Radwraith said:

That doesn't make any sense. Yes, there are 'updated' versions of the rules, however they are irrelevant with regards to Ascension because Ascension doesn't use them. Take your example of the hordes rules - a GM can certainly house-rule them into his DH campaign but in doing so he is no longer using the RAW. Your choice to stop the VA from using his dodge against horde attacks (or even use it with a penalty) is especially against the RAW, as the VA is supposed to be able to use dodge no matter what.

Ascension by the RAW is poorly designed. People who complain about it being unbalanced are using the current ruleset - the current DH ruleset. The Ascension mechanics were designed with DH rules in mind, not RT, DW or BC. Converting it to be used with the other games rulesets can certainly be done, but that won't solve the problems. You have to deal with each of the issues and house-rule them individually , finding a fix for each.

H2SO4 said:

1. If you're constantly floating through the air, walking on walls, or GROW A PAIR OF WINGS, the setting itself (a part of the core rulebook, so not apart from the mechanics of the game, but complementary to it - psyker balance is not supposed to be considered in a vacuum) will have issues. Burning-brand-wielding peasants with pitchforks. Inquisitorial teams wondering about such careless displays of power attracting Greater Daemons from the Depths of Hell. Things like that.

2. Check the errata for Distort Vision. They nerfed it considerably. And for good reason. It is no longer a blanket immunity to everything.

3. See Me Not requires the enemy fail the willpower test. Possible, but hard to rely on. It also means you're not doing anything offensive that round.

Mostly, though, I agree with you. Staying out of reach of enemies is the safest bet. Avoid fire like the plague (avoid that, too). Also, the biggest issues with psykers is the scaling of certain powers (created for a book with pretty reasonable upper limits to psychic potential) when things like PR 8+ and Unnatural Willpower (x2) and (x3) start showing up.

I would point out that the RAW specifically states(Ascension pg. 91 under Temple Assassin) that the GM is the final arbiter as to when the "Temple assassin" dodge ability may be used so I'm not outside the RAW with my suggestion at all! I grow tired of this "It's not in the original rules" argument. Of course it isn't! That's been my point all along. The only way people who cling to this will be happy is when FFG releases a DH 2nd edit. (Or whatever they want to call it!). I cannot and will not argue that the original flaws in DH are not exacerbated in ascension. My point was that FFG has made efforts to update it in the form of succeeding games. The information is out there if you wish to look for it! You do not have to do it all yourself! Either FFG will update the DH core mechanic or they will not. Thus: People who cling strictly to DH and ascension RAW will either get what they want or not! I maintain that the concept of playing a truly epic character like an Inquisitor (Or Psyker primaris, Vindicare or whatever!) is pretty cool in concept! Do the work or not as you choose but I have always found Epic level games in ANY system have ways to become horribly broken! This is no exception! As a GM, You will deal with it or you won't! I personally don't recommend ANY system's epic level for the faint of heart or those of narrow mind! <I'll stop ranting now>

Radwraith said:

And even then there will still be plenty of people that don't like it or agree how it has been done and this will start all over again. You can't please everyone and there is no accounting for taste.

Radwraith said:

"You can fix it" is not a valid excuse for "It's broken".

Any game or supplement, no matter how badly designed, can be fixed if the buyer is willing to put in the effort. That doesn't change the fact that the product was shoddy in the first place. Of course the concept of playing a VA or an Inquisitor is a valid concept - hell, it's an awesome concept. But Ascension is not a good supporting product for such a game.

Zakalwe said:

And no, it's not a matter of taste. It's a matter of poor - even sloppy - game design. Simple problems with the system that should have been eliminated through playtesting. Of course you can never please everyone, but making ridiculous mistakes like the VA and the PP just irritates more of your customers. Ascension didn't just fail to meet the expectations of a few ridiculously entitled and demanding fans who didn't get what they wanted, it was just a poor product.

@Catachan

I stand corrected. Grappling is indeed a very good Anti-Psyker technique in DH (and in BC as well for that matter). I overread the action restriction for people in a grapple.

So choke them for all its worth before they xplodify your head! ;-)

Grappling could also be a decent way to keep a Vindicare from dodging like a madman. At the very least, he wouldn't be able to dodge AoEs (as the dodger needs to be able to leave the area to successfully do so).

macd21 said:

You think the VA is a good PC option, but overpowered in Ascension. I think a Temple Assassin should be an NPC only but also that Ascension gets the power level of a VA about right compared to the others. Of course it's a matter of taste: how could it be anything else?

The amount of cry baby's on this forum is truly sad.Ive never seen the amount of complaing that i see in this forum.I dont post here much anympore due to the constant complaining and whining.I give FFG alot of credit for putting up with the petty bickering alot of you post .What worries me is most of you are probably adults thats doing this.Dont like the game?Dont play it.There many of us that due.We like the game,the system,and the company that puts out quality products.If you can do better by all means start your own company.This rant obviously doesnt go for everyone here as ive read some very intelligent post and questions about the game.Im sure those that will be offended by my post will no doubt respond.Doesnt change the fact that your still cry baby's.

miles1739 said:

Whilst i completely understand the sentiment behind that statement and believe this thread has completely gotten out of hand i do believe that the community, and thus FFGs finance generating public, do have some legitimate concerns about the quality of a product they have payed for and the support it has(nt) received.

I have gotten a lot of use out of the 40k rp books i have purchased over the years (all of them apart from pre-written adventure books) but i find that Ascension is the one that has sat there gathering dust after the 3 failed attempts, by different GMs and using different game styles, to get it working. It's galling to know that FFG aren't doing updates or extended support for their systems beyond the errata and they dry up about a year after launch with version 1.1 or if we are lucky 1.2.

I don't consider that being a cry-baby, i consider it being an unsatisfied customer.

I have to admit, that Ascension is not a level our games gotten to yet. But I have looked ahead, for my Moritat, and I can basicly build the PC I want as a Death Cultist.

I couple of things I would like to have aren't there, but... That what Elite Advances are for. Unnatural Speed is one

but then again, he is being built as a Weapon to be used again all the Emperor Threats, no social skills to speak of hurt that starting fellowship end up a 22.

Zakalwe said:

The VA is either a poorly designed PC option or else it is an NPC career that shouldn't be available to PCs. Either way it's poorly designed - taste doesn't change the fact that it's poor quality. Yes, some people like poorly designed goods (some people love Plan 9 from Outer Space), but that doesn't change the fact that they suck.