Hi there,

I’m somewhat befuddled by the Black Shield advances table in Rites of Battle. It seems redundant as it is an almost exact copy of the rank 1 Space Marine general advance table – which Black Shields already have access to. So why is everything repeated?

About the only advances NOT on the general list are Concealment +10 and Silent Move +10, and an extra Sound Constitution. So in reality, there are only three Black Shield advances. Is that all they get?? Shouldn’t the Black Shield advances be more comparable to the Chapter advances (which they don’t have access to), instead of a pointless repetition of the general list?

Hmm, this is weird, captain Erf. I am going to look it up in my books.

Seems there's no real point in playing a Black Sheild character then :/

Yes, other than what you listed, the advance table contains basics from the General Space Marine Advance Table, probably as an insurance policy against any roleplaying events that may prevent the character from using that table. You still get to choose whichever Chapter squad mode abilities you want, benefit from anyone's squad mode abilities, and can use fate points in more ways than other characters (though at the cost of having a Chapter solo mode).

At any rate, the Specialty is free, and is definitely Roleplay-heavy in nature. Take Black Shield and Kill-Marine at Character Creation, and become The Most Interesting Marine In The World.

I realize the Black Shield is a free option. But basically, it’s an alternative to selecting a home Chapter. And selecting a Chapter is a free option anyway.
Black Shields lose out on the bonuses to Characteristics and free talents that most Chapters get. AND they have far fewer skills and talents to choose from.

From a character building/roleplaying point of view, the complete lack of specific talents or skills means you cannot tailor the character how you want. There’s no way to represent your character’s past history or the chapter you came from.

A Black Shield could come from any Chapter. And presumably has had to be pretty versatile to survive on his own. If anything, they should have access to a wide variety of skills and talents. Instead they get nothing. It makes no sense and it doesn’t seem to balance out, in my opinion.

It is a really, really crappy package from a mechanical perspective. I can't even think of a good reason that any SM would lose access to the general SM table either. It's really pretty disappointing given the ton of fluff possibilities inherent to taking the black (and lots of parallels between Deathwatch in general/Black Shields in particular and the Night's Watch from A Game of Thrones).

On the other hand, one of my players is a Black Shield Assault Marine and he really enjoys the fluff aspects - being suspected of Weird Things by the Blood Raven and one of the watch-captains. I'd like to improve the crunch of this option but he's been pretty happy/non-upset about it so far so I haven't had much impetus to work on that.

Blackshields don't lose the General Advance table, just the Chapter one. Thus the repetition.

You also don't lose the Characteristic bonuses or Demeanor. You pick a base chapter, then you lose the solo mode and chapter advance table, and replace the squad modes if you want. You also have to keep to specialty restrictions. so no Black Shield ex-Black Templar Librarian. But you could do a librarian from some other chapter and choose the BT squad modes.

Captain Ventris said:

That doesn’t explain the repetition, that's precisely what causes the confusion. Since Black Shields already have access to the General Table, it is pointless to repeat everything in the Black Shield Advance Table. Maybe it was done to obscure the fact that the Black Shield table only really has three options, which is pretty crappy compared to normal Chapters.

I like the fluff of the Black Shield but it’s a pity the rules don’t represent it.
Why no solo mode? If anything they should excel at operating solo!
Why no Advances like Survival +10 to represent self-reliance? Or Fearless to represent having nothing left to lose?
And wouldn’t an ex-Space Wolf have a different set of abilities than an ex-Ultramarine? So at least at character creation, they should have access to Advances that represent their previous Chapter.

Also, I don’t understand why they made it a Specialty, instead of an alternative “Chapter” with maybe a unique talent.
After all, “Black Shield” is a surrogate for “Blood Angel” or “White Scar”, not for a combat role like “Devastator”.

(Yes I know you tack the Black Shield speciality on a regular speciality, but it just makes more sense to have a Black Shield “Chapter” option instead).

I'm not going to try to defend the horrible list of 'advances' they get, but by being an advanced specialty it precludes having other advanced specialties.

This makes sense from the standpoint that all of the other advanced specialties are positions requiring more trust than any standard Black Shield would be able to attain without extraordinary accomplishments. Generaly if you were able to do enough to be trusted enough to hold one of those other positions you would have redeemed yourself to reclaim your old chapter. There are of course possible exceptions, but as it says right after the 'Normally it is not possible for a character to gain more than one Advanced Specialties.' they go on to say a GM might let you.

The way I see it is that no matter how cool you are, if your big dark secret is still so bad that you haven't made up for it by single handedly winning the entire crusade and kicking all xenos/heretics from this sector or space (as an absurd example,) they still won't put you in a position of additional responsibility.

Nathiel said:

Meh. Not even FFG follows this "rule" with regards to its own products. See Titus Strome, Black Shield Chaplain.

I think it best to treat the Black Shield as an alternative chapter rather than a Specialty Rank.

I guess the Price of Redemption Ability is supposed to make up for the lack of Chapter Skills or at least the Solo Mode ability.

Since a Black Shield could come from any Chapter what skills could be included. (pick a few from a list perhaps?)

Why not just allow a small number of elite advances per rank (one or two) at no extra cost with gm veto? Never let the system dictate what your game can be creative people!

And what is a Kill Marine? Aren't all Space Marines pretty good at that by definition?

Zakalwe said:

As opposed to a Kill-Team (group of DW marines), a Kill-Marine is a Deathwatch marine who's usually deployed alone. His big trick is that he can enter Squad Mode by himself and gets some Fellowship-based stuff. He's basically The Guy Who Knows Everyone.

Zakalwe said:

Well of course Rule 0 always applies. But don't fall into a Rule 0 Fallacy. The system shouldn't force GMs to fix it; table-by-table changes should be made on the basis of flavor and playstyle preference, not the gameline producing bad or inferior material that people need to fix at their own tables.

Kshatriya said:

+1

Kshatriya said:

Well I agree in principle, but I also believe that there is no such thing as a perfect system. That applies to all systems and not just rpgs. But you do have a point from what I've read here that they (FFG) appear to have been more lazy, than less than perfect in this instance.

Thanks fo letting me know about Kill Marines.If anyone has been reading the recently finished AND MOST EXCELLENT game commentary of 'FOR PROFIT AND PLUNDER: A PC'S TALE' over in Rogue Trader, I suspect that Castigar the deathwatch marine who hooks up with the RT may well have been a Kill Marine now that I know what one is. He shows up about half way through.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=123&efcid=3&efidt=388948

I would say in this instance you ask the player, or GM, whichever is making the Black Shield to research what their past chapter was, take their strengths and weakness's, compare + contrast, and if it's an unlisted chapter or a Traitor Legion - write up a small chapter skills table with about 10 items.

Stannis Ravensight said:

Black shields are written as remnant loyalists of a chapter turned to chaos; last few surviving marines of a chapter all but wiped out who seek a glorious end; or a marine who has a dark past and seeks a form of 'redemption'.

I would say its logical to create the chapter the black shield is from using the rules found in ROB and take Black shield as an advanced speciality to supplement the character.

Anyone sharing the same sentiments?

Deepstriker said:

That's what I did with my Black Shield player.