Ok, I just wanted to post and give folks an update. We do have an episode. I finished editing it around 1:30-2:00 this afternoon. I've been attempting to upload it ever since and it keeps failing. Will post here once issues are resolved and the episode is up.

Wow. Just wow. That was a mess. Wound up having to Dropbox it to Darksbane and had him upload it. Anyway, go check the feed here.

Trying it out as a bit longer episode this time around. There was a bit of positive feedback on longer episodes and boy is there a lot of content to cover. We even had to cut a couple topics, so look for an action packed time next week as well!

Ok, i haven't listened to the whole thing, but ive already got a few comments...

I think the main reason Kennon gets mixed up with other people is because his voice sounds to similar to Wills...

Greatjon i think is great, at the very least he can jump in and defend yourself on any of the 3 challenges (intrigue too) even if he gets stealthed. The thing about titles makes him look a bit more meh than he is. might be good against the new martell thing, he dont care if you strip his icons.

Also i laughed when boobs mentioned she liked Daario having three icons, "Especially in targ" cause they dont have that many...
Its been a while since i checked, but last time i did, Targ was THE house with the most tricons. especially if you count non uniques as triples

oshi said:

I hate my life....

oshi said:

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Kennon said:

ahahhahahahahahahhahahahhaha. <whew> my tummy hurts.

oshi said:

Targ may have a lot of tricons (11 that I can think of including the new Daario and Jorah), but aside from both Jorah's, the new Daario, and Black Hatchling they are pretty universally bad (overcosted/understrengthed, awkward abilities, whatever else) so I think what she was going for was that Targ is getting a lot of GOOD tricons with no little/no downside that are costed very aggressively. It might be that FFG is giving Targ more good tricons as some kind of minitheme for them, but I totally understand where she was coming from.

Kennon does sound alot like Will....lol

How did you not include Quentyn's Guard in the Top 5 of Where Loyalty Lies? To me, that card is a three-times auto-include in Melee Martell decks. A 3 STR for 2 cost with Deadly, Stealth and a Bicon; it also has the Army and Knight traits, AND is a non-unique. That's rediculous. ****, it's even good for 4 Gold in a Joust game.

EDIT: You were discussing the Agenda Characters, wondering if you can play a Unique Character that has already become an Agenda. I don't have an answer to this, but wouldn't this same type of ruling apply to the Chamber cards, such as "King Robert's Chambers." If you play King Robert's Chambers as an Attachment to your House card, then it is an Attachment. So, why couldn't you then play a second copy as a Location?

Another thing to think about is how you can play the Alliance Plot card, while you are using the Alliance Agenda. But neither card is technically a Unique.

Oh guys I'm so dissapointed. words are like arrows on top but house divided not, what... seriously WAT WUT WHAT just what. House divided is easily the best card in this pack I would even go and say its better than game of cyvasse. Also it being in lannister is better than that other event being in martell. There are so many cards with traits incommon and people usually like to play the same trait so you will always hit what you want and slow their draw.

Other than that, great episode guys

I would also say that in GJ cancel there is only few slots that you should be ever run for just pure cancel (especially just event cancel as their other things hit much more stuff).

sWhiteboy said:

There were a lot of good cards in the pack, and while the Guard are great in Melee, in Joust, they're just a 4 cost Stealth/deadly bicon that is a dead card in setup - Martell has much better things to put in the 4/5 gold slot (e.g. more dupes of the viper, new Doran, Arianne), that it's not very practical to run them as well.

With the agenda characters, It's not the same thing as the Chambers, because an agenda is out of play, while King Robert's Chambers, when attached to a house card, isn't.

Regarding Griff. Whilst I do think he's pretty good, I do not think he's amazing for a few reasons.

1 - He shuts out using another agenda. Since Targ frequently use Summer or TMP to fuel card draw, you're losing an essential resource amongst other things. His attachement recursion effect is interesting but not irreplaceable.

2 - Whilst in play he's nothing special. A 3for3for3 is pretty good but not unique for Targ or even all that necessary. Being a Lord, Knight and Noble is great... if you're Baratheon. Those key words mean little for Targ currently. Admittedly, this could change in the future. The Norvos card even in its partially spoiled state isn't bad for Targ since it has influence and they have a modest collection of quality Lords. Since he does nothing special, his unkillable nature is diluted. Its most interesting when comboed with ambush attachments where he can recur these attachments and then use them to be replayed later. Unfortunately, all the current ones are Dothraki only.

3 - He addresses none of Targ's problems. He's cost efficient which is good but there are multiple other characters who are better. He otherwise does not address Targ's weak draw or their influence/gold management. In fact, Targ is a bit reliant on attachment effects. He eases them with good recursion but Targ attachments dilute set up making Targ draw even worse. Now, if Targ were to say have some form of effect that keyed off of characters entering or leaving play outside the Marshalling phase, then we might have something.

playgroundpsychotic said:

I disagree, Griff is pretty amazing.

1. Griff's passive doesn't work if you're running an agenda. He wouldn't be your "only" agenda if you're already running an agenda, so he'd just die normally - you don't lose your agenda.

2. 3 for 3 Tricon is great. Tricons are incredibly flexible. Him being unkillable is also very useful - you chumpblock a deadly challenge, he dies, and he comes back, ready to challenge again, he's repeatable claim soak, board presence after valar etc. His response is amazing. Recurring your flame kisseds and using them multiple times per turn, especially on a threat from the North turn is incredible. He is a serious leg up for Targ Burn.

3, Using that argument, you could argue the new Cersei is bad because she doesn't help Lanny with Location or attachment hate.... he seriously helps burn. He's also a very good 3 cost Targ Card and much better other cost 3 characters - Targ also could run more 3 costs than other houses anyway because Targ's 4 cost characters are so bad - only 3 or so regularly see play unless you count the dragons.

Tomdidiot said:

That's a good point. And since an Agenda is out of play. I don't see any reason why you couldn't play a second copy of Griff or The Kindly Man while the first copy is an Agenda.

Tomdidiot said:

1. Correct. But you're only gonna use him if you're not running another agenda. Which means none of the other cards that come with playing TMP or Summer. For, Targ you're giving up valuable draw amongst other effects. Not so hot now eh?

2, No. You're mistaken. He does none of those things unless you have access to him as an agenda. Are you willing to give up TMP or Summer for that? If you're not, he's a vanilla tricon with traits and a crest that are not used by Targ.

3. The new Cersei has two amazing abilities that directly plug into an existing House theme. Griff has no amazing abilities at all if you're running another agenda. Even if you do run him as your agenda, he's fairly efficient but has no irreplaceable effects. And, yes, unlike Cersei he does have to address Targ in house problems because that's what agendas do.

Compare him to Young Griff. Targ have multiple useful shadow cards and effects. He has a unique and potent come into play effect. And when he is in play, he has stealth thus making him more valuable as a Tricon. That is why he is a 5 star character and Griff is not.

Yes, I am judging him in a vacuum. However, the only guarantee that I see forthcoming to improve his character is that there will be new Influence generating cards that are not limited. As it is, without adequate draw replacement he probably shouldn't be your agenda. I don't really expect to see any Lord or Knight effects for Targ. Other cards that effect Nobles (ie a new Strong Belwas) would be welcome though.

ok this is pretty much a draw=win argument so let me try tackle it from this angle...

I think one way he could be played, is so that he spends most of his time as a character. he becomes free AND infinite claim soak, in this sense he is still vaguely card advantage. you effectively reduce all military claim by one and oppose it for free. deadly also means you can oppose for free.

now this becomes a tricky timing question but heres an attempt at a draw engine for him. lets say you attach him with hrakkar pelts/lands and a keep/jousting lance/anything that gives you a draw when you play it. lets say you are doing your job as targ and these attachments are the ones that are keeping you ahead in attachments. If he dies, does he become an agenda in time to bounce the moribund attachments that were on him? before him coming back into play because you 'lost' those attachments.

You are treating him as if him vs tmp vs summer will all be playing the same deck, but i think he will allow for new strategies/tricks which the other two won't be capable of.

I'm not purely trying to turn this into a draw=win argument. Draw is important but TMP and Summer also provide other potent effects. Griff doesn't give you anything you don't already have. I could try to create an engine with the "refresh" attachments but I think those attachments are only more valuable if you can key them with other effects. Hrakkar Pelt for example is an alright card but its better if you can gain additional advantage for winning dominance or performing an action during dominance. Furthermore, they dilute your deck with alot of weak attachments that hurt setup and potentially your draw and gold.

Let's compare Griff to another recent immortal, Theon Greyjoy. Griff's immortality is a bit better but is he stronger in play? Theon might be weaker but he does have a highly useful trait and Greyjoy can make better use of the Noble crest. Theon also doesn't prevent other agendas from being used and his passive helps aid the mill mechanic. You can drop him into any Greyjoy deck as a cheep claim soak and you have the option of using his other abilities to your advantage. Again, Griff is useful but effects to make him stronger do not exist in Targ. Imagine him played OOH in a Baratheon deck.

As for Griff's mechanics, I think his passive agenda transformation completely resolves (step 4) before any other responses are triggered (step 5). So if he has an attachment I think he can recur it. He also might trigger his other passive (coming back) before you can trigger his agenda response. I'm also bad at the game so I could be wrong.

playgroundpsychotic said:

Hmmm..... Not sure why I would want to do that. His ability brings very little to the table out of Baratheon. Which attachments are you desperately wanting to recur in Baratheon?

On the other hand, in Targ, he ensures that the first copy of a powerful burn attachment that you draw is essentially infinite copies. That sounds like pretty good draw to me.

Ok, so it's really card advantage, rather than draw, but it's still exceptional.

Kennon said:

Griff says that it has to be a Targ Attachment. So, no Baratheon Attachments are going to recur.

sWhiteboy said:

Lol, to be fair, I think his hypothetical was probably meant to carry over as Griff being a Baratheon card (thus replacing Targ attachment with Bara attachment) , which has slightly more use than playing him as is in a Baratheon deck.

Kennon said:

I wish that were true, but he said to play Griff as an OOH card in a Baratheon deck. It's just overall fail. ......sadness.

Kennon said:

It has a little more to do with him being an unkillable Lord, Knight and Noble. The recursion would be irrelevant. An unkillable Dothraki with the War Crest would be valuable for Targ. Especially one that can manipulate a variety of attachments not just the burn ones. Lords, Knights and Nobles are not for Targ at this time. I suspect that this may change since Griff and Friends may be able to support each other in thematic ways.

And because it can not be said enough, recursion is not draw. You have to draw into the moving parts needed to get recursion started and keep it rolling. Summer and TMP make getting started easier. Griff is very efficient only after you have everything in place.

Sooo.... aside from finding a way to get him killed I need one burn attachment and 1 influence? This doesn't exactly seem like the most difficult combinations to put together.

Golden Tooth Mines doesn't do me any good either if I don't draw cards that are applicable to the current board state, and it still runs into the issue of there being at max 3 of any single card that I might want. With a minimum of effort, Griff knocks that max out. I'd still say that's pretty solid.

Also, is no one going to weigh in on the Great Daario Debate?

Or does everyone just agree with me that he's phenomenal?

Kennon said:

1. So does Dany's Chambers. Or Bronze Link. And its never, ever just 1 influence with Targ. And I'll take the more likely to draw what you need of GTM or other draw mechanism over the hope I can get my recursion going. By cutting yourself off from certain agendas you're losing certain tools and you may not have adequate replacements for them.

2. I want to be the filling in a Jorah-Daario sandwich. There is no debate.

playgroundpsychotic said:

Complete agreement. Daario is a beast.

Dany's Chambers requires a steady stream of incoming Targ characters with cost equal to or greater than that of the attachment you want to recur. This on top of initially drawing though attachment, the location, and assumably some extra resources to keep pumping out the characters. That sounds like quite a bit more of an investment (particularly in draw) to me.

Bronze Link requires you to get a maester, which either relies on draw or dictates a plot choice, then a suitable way to repeatedly kneel that maester (generally through another chain) which relies on draw or dictates an agenda, and of course, the draw of the burn attachment itself. I'd say this is easier to set up by virtue of The Maester's Path, but less powerful in overall potential of recursion as you're more directly limited in the number of times that you can trigger it in a round.

*shrug* After having talked with Zeiler a good bit about it off air, I think there are going to be some pretty rockin' Griff builds.

Also, glad to hear our audience agrees with me on Daario. Take that, cohosts!