The biggest problem we're facing in this discussion is semantics.

For me, domination is a Mickey versus Recon Grenadiers that have already fired their panzerfausts. The Mickey is a deadly threat versus a unit that can only try to hide from it.

A Mickey versus Recon Grenadiers is a deadly threat that faces a credible threat, because while the Mickey can one shot the Recon Grenadiers, they have the possibility of doing the same. Not as good a chance unless heavy cover is involved, but something the Mickey's player needs to consider.

I class threats as deadly for units that can one shot fairly easily, credible for those with the ability to damage and possibly one shot a unit, minor if they have minimal chance to damage a unit, and a speed bump if they can do nothing to a unit but be in its way.

When I talk about using units well, I don't mean you have to be a much better player than your opponent to succeed. I mean you have to use your units based on their strengths, while trying to mitigate their weaknesses. A Sturmpionere has a 33% chance to one-shot any medium walker or lighter, up to 55% if they can use a Sustained Attack. If they can keep to cover on their advance, any walker has to destroy them to take away that threat. They also serve to protect their walkers from enemy infantry threats.

Recon Grenadiers are not walker hunters, but they do retain a significant threat to anything up to medium walkers. So long as even one survives, they can fire all of their panzerfausts. They work better against enemy infantry, and enemy infantry is a major threat to walkers, so that's their primary target. Hell Boys cost over twice what Recon Grenadiers cost, with a range of 1 compared to the Recon Grenadier's range of 4 for 8 dice against the Hell Boys (11 dice at range 2). The Axis could afford to lose an entire squad taking out a single Hell Boys squad and come out with an advantage. Recon Grenadiers hunt infantry, and attack walkers only when they need to. They have a 25.9% chance to one shot a medium walker on a normal attack, with a 70.3% chance to cause at least 2 damage. Jump that up to 45.1% to one shot and 91.2% to damage on a Sustained Attack. Those two Recon Grenadier squads bought for less than the cost of a single Hell Boys squad can deal a lot of pain if used to their capabilities. There's a reason the top teams noted from GenCon both fielded Recon Grenadiers. Their odds of a one shot against a walker are not as good as a Mickey with an open terrain shot at them at optimum range, but it is significant, and something that should not be discounted.

I haven't claimed great ranges for any infantry in close terrain. Close terrain can mitigate any range advantages that exist. That applies to the Mickey as much as to the Luther. If you have to closeto range 2 to fire at enemy infantry, that enemy infantry may well have a shot at you with everything they have. Even for normal engagements, if the Mickey closes to range 4 for an attack, enemy infantry can at least move to range 3 and attack if they move again before the Mickey. The Mickey will not always be able to move in to attack at optimum range, and flit away again before retaliation strikes, nor will 16 dice guarantee a kill, even if the infantry is in the open. If the infantry has cover, the odds drop dramatically.

Playing a simple 'kill them all' mission makes something like the Mickey more of a threat for enemy infantry, but if the Mickey has to enter close terrain with cover for scenario pirposes, the infantry start gaining against the Mickey (or any other walker).

Given a choice, people would want to go to their favorite big bang units for competitive play, but scenario point limits means you can only take so much, so the less flashy units have to soldier on with what capabilities they possess. Fortunately, they can, and while not always gaining a one shot kill on enemy units, at least cause enough damage to make life easier for other units to finish the job. You build an army with some awesome units, but can only take so many. You need to field and use simpler units well to win in harsh competitive play, and not just the awesome units.

Gimp said:

Again, your post above does not prove that the luther is a great unit.

Gimp said:

The luther sucks at close range, because it is not maneuverable. The mickey is maneuverable because of fast, and can insta kill units with 16 at CQB range 4. The luther has to be B2B to deal 11 rolls. The mickey can maintain distance, the Luther can, but won't achieve it's maximum damage potential. Also worst for the luther if the infatry has cover.

The only thing that the luther has over the mickey is range, and the ability to slightly damage tanks.

Gimp said:

Ok, I agree 100%. But depending on the scenario I would rather field 2 recon gren, then a luther, because frankly you can do more with them then the luther. The luther is at the moment weak, with better units to field period. See 35 points is too expensive for a simple unit.

Oh and for the record the recon gren are awesome units for their price.

There's a lot of theories on how good it can be but they don't really add up, here's the facts:

1) Rolling just 2 dice against vehicles, it will be outgunned by anything with anti-tank ability so it has to try and close to use its pincers. Its self repair may make it last an extra turn of being shot at but it will get destroyed.

2) Against infantry at range its good, rolling 10 dice against A2 and can even make 3 man units of A3 think twice at presenting a target.

3) The Charge ability against infantry is useless. If it charges it can only combat with its pincer rolling just 4 damage, so unless it attacks an already weakened unit, will not cause enough damage and will take 2 or 3 anti-tank attacks on sustained back - it will get destroyed. So unless a target cannot be aquired unless it moves 2, you might as well shoot with 9 dice.

4) It has a decent AA attack.

So, as far as I can see, the only use this machine has at the moment that is a good possibility in most games is ranged attack against infantry that are not supported by an anti-tank mech. The Luthers value will be better when the chopper arrives, but a twin 50mm Luther would be a lot better in all situations than one with a claw.

then with anti air i havent seen the heavies yet there coming in the mail but shouldnt the anti air heavy tank be even better anti air than the luther

3 times better 9/1 factors.

Major Mishap said:

It is really odd that we get the LOTH with the two claws and not the other way around........ Granted an unlimited range walker that rolls 12 / 1 dice against type 2 infantry would probably be a bit too much.

It would be an unbalanced beast.

As we know, having 2 guns does not mean twice the number of dice. They could be linked as one gun like some of the others and have +2 dice.

I've never said the Luther was a great unit. I consider it a usable unit that can be worth it's points when it is used according to its capabilities.

I don't feel people need to have a Luther, nor do I thnk it would fit every player's play style. The same could be said of every other unit in DUST.

I've simply stated that it is worth its points if it is used appropriately. It can easily fail to live up to that opinion if someone uses it diferently, but so can every other unit in DUST.

Being usable and being popular are not the same thing. I expect the Luther will become more popular when the SSU hits the table, as the anti-aircraft capability will add more to its usefullness.

The Mickey can do things the Luther can't. The Luther can do things the Mickey can't. Neither one is available to the oppoising side, so each side gets to use their choice however they want. That choice can easily be to ignore either unit in favor of other options, or use either unit as best they can.

I haven't used either one as often as I use other units, but I've been happy with both of them when I have used them.

I asked over at BGG, but figured this was as good a place as any. ANYWAY

I got some reinforcements today (Command, Sniper/Observer, and Medium Walkers for both factions) and managed to flip the Luther's gun around to make a twin 5cm Luther. What would that card look like? Looks like I guessed right adding 2 dice for the extra gun, but what about point cost and abilities? drop charge and self repair for advanced/superior reactive fire?

Certainly drop Charge, but I'm not sure about Advanced Reactive Fire. Usually walkers have some sort of sensors to justify that. Maybe just keep Self-Repair.

Suppose I added a radar array to it, dropped both abilities and gave it ARF? How many points you think that's worth?

Loophole Master said:

The light walkers don't, I gues the rate of fire compensates to allow better reaction fire. Here's the card I've been using, although its at 40pts, Ihaven't recalculated it for the new points system yet.

Major Mishap said:

The Heinrich has. That little bump on top the cockpit is a sensor array. If you look at the Premium Hermann, it doesn't have it, because the Hermann doesn't have Advanced Reactive Fire. The Wildfire, however, doesn't have anything that would justify it.

Don't really look like sensors to me, reminds me more of an air vent,

Thanks for the card MM.

Major Mishap said:

What new points system? There was the old original one (2 or 4 points) and the new one that scaled larger and more variable.

Sorry, would have been better if I said current points system.