I hear the term "auto-include" used a lot. What do people feel are current auto-includes. I challenge you to list them.

Well I'll throw down a list of Baratheon cards that are auto includes no matter what build you are running.

Seat of Power, Refugee, Narrow Sea, Robert's Chambers, Core set Stannis, some version of Robert, Renly, Melisandre. Maester Cressen, Fiery Kiss, Red Wedding, Power of Blood(at least one copy, some builds might run two copies), Smuggler's Cove (this might not make some shadow builds, but should make the cut on anything else) and Swayed by the Light.

Swayed by the Light isn't an LCG card.

Martell: Elia Sand, Refugee of the Citadel, Lost Spearman, Arianne Martell, A Game of Cyvasse, He Calls It Thinking, Darkstar (PotS), Orphan of the Greenblood, Palace Fountains, Summer Sea, Ser Arys Oakheart, Venomous Blade (next would be The Viper's Bannermen). For the most part, To the Spears, unless it's a super control build.

Danigral said:

I still use it in all my Bara decks!

For Lanni:

Pyromancer's Cache, Tommen, Arys Oakheart, Mountain Refugee, Lanni Iron Throne, a 1 cost income weenie (probably moneylender)

These are cards that I feel will make any Lanni deck better if you add them in. There are additional auto-includes I would add, but they are more build specific.

If Staton can use Swayed by the Light, can I use Wheels within Wheels?

Rave said:

Only if its signed by GRRM.

Not including resource cards.

Neutral:

Varys

Carrion Bird

Retaliation!

Loyalty Money Can Buy

Search and Detain

Valar Morgulis

Stark:

Hodor

Meera Reed

Frozen Solid

Hungry Mob

Bolton Refugee

Hodor!

Respect of the Old Gods

The Blackfish

Catelyn Stark that jumps into play during challenges.

Guard at Riverrun

Brienne of Tarth

Hodor!!!

Northern Cavalry Flank

Ser Jorah Mormont

I tend to be rather reluctant in my use of the term "auto-include", but Forever Burning and Flame-Kissed are, or should be, in every Targaryen deck.

For Greyjoy, Refugee of the Isles, Distinguished Boatswain, Sunset Sea and Rise of the Kraken are the only definite auto-includes. Trailing closely behind are Longship Iron Victory, Risen from the Sea, Scouting Vessel and The Iron Mines.

Staton said:

I took a Bara Knights deck to a competition just before Christmas - didn't use Seat of Power (Limited is a pain) Maester Cressen, Fiery Kiss, Red Wedding, or Power of Blood.

(and obviously not Swayed by the Light)

I did ok-ish, and it was my lack of ability + Ghaston Grey and Lost Oasis that screwed me over, not a lack of these cards.

So whilst there's some cards that are in most decks, I think an actual AUTO-include is rarer - maybe only the refugees and 2 or 3 others per house

Circadia said:

See, that's the thing with "auto-includes". For you Rise of the Kraken is a "definite auto-include" in GJ. Yet, it was neither in Harren's Stahleck-winning GJ deck nor in my Stahleck 5th place deck. For me, it's a-i in an Unopposed deck, but not necessarily in a Winter/Choke or Raider/Mill deck.

I agree that the term "auto-include" is problematic.

There are certainly cards that are normally used in most decks of a certain house. In most cases, it makes sense to play the 0-cost in-house Refugees, for example.

But auto -include suggests that you always play those cards without thinking about it. This might put a restriction on creative deck-building.

To continue with the refugee example, what if you tried to build a deck that wants to abuse The First Snow of Winter followed by Rule by Decree ? It might make sense not to play a lot of cheap, 0-cost and 1-cost characters yourself then, as you want to achieve a board position where your opponent has his hand full of cheap characters, while you do not.

That is why I do not like the term auto -include.

Other than the refugees, I'm not sure I agree that any of the above cards are 100% "auto-includes," though I would expect them in a lot of builds.

I would say a better way to approach this is that you look for "roles" that *must* be filled. For example, anti-seasons (summer/winter) tech. If you aren't running the Maester's Path agenda, then you should probably play Carrion Birds (they're an "auto-include"). If you run the maester agenda, then you can instead play Tin Link + Copper Link.

Maybe there are some exceptions when it comes to "draw" though. The options for draw/card advantage are still kind of light despite the gradual increase in card pool. So Golden Tooth Mines, Tommen, Jhogo (draw version), House Messenger all seem like auto-includes in their respective houses. Pyromancer's Cache and The Viper's Bannermen would be auto-includes, except that they are on the restricted list.

Other than draw though, I think it really depends on the build you're looking for. For example, in a Martell summer deck, Maester of the Sun is an auto include, along with Darkstar, etc. If you're playing a Sandsnake deck (like the one that won Days of Ice & Fire melee), then seems like Maester of the Sun is not an auto-include.

Just do a search on agotcards.org or cardgamedb.com for decks. Compare the decks, and you should find similarities...probably most consistently with regard to draw.

@Jimm, wait. What other limited cards are you using? Aegon's Garden? I certainly think that adding in three seat of powers isn't going to have you trying to flop four limited cards or anything. At the very worst you are going to flop an Aegon's Garden and keep the Seat of Power for the First turn. Honestly, before Lannisport Treasury was reprinted, I considered seat of power the best resource card in the game. Agreed that Fiery Kiss probably isn't an auto include yet since most people don't realize how good it is. I'm very curious as to what you had in in place of Red Wedding and one copy of Power of Blood. I'm guessing you are one of those people who didn't include things like Robert, Renly, Stannis, Selyse, and Mel because it was a knight deck? Also not Maester Cressen? He's awesome even if you just get one use out of him, and you'll usually get more than one use out of him.

As a Targ player, there's normally a few characters that make every deck regardless of what else I might include.

Jhogo (OSaS) - Solid character with draw. No reason to not include him until Targ gets some form of solid pre-challenge draw.

Viserys (Core) - Little deficient with some plots but still the best claim soak there is.

Maester Aemon (Core or ACoS) - More claim soak. I lean toward the ACoS version usually since he's reducible although poor in Winter. Also searchable.

Advisor to the Crown - Most Targ decks require influence and he's searchable via plot.

Summer Sea - Duh.

Meereen Tourney Ground - Even in a non-burn deck, its helpful to push through a challenge. Its better than Forever Burning since it can help with set-up.

0 Cost Hobo - Your refugee of choice. Harbingers are a reasonable substitute since they'll usually have a few reduction targets and aren't vulnerable to Dissension.

Jorah Mormont (KotS or WLL) - KotS version is a cheap tricon with stealth. New version takes the place of Varys in Targ and has more fighting ability besides.

That's about it. Everything else tends to belong to some form of deck but lacks universality even if they're a good card.

Twn2dn said:

And I don't even agree on the Refugees. I've always had plenty of decks than didn't run them. I always include them at first, but sometimes they just don't make the cut. Also, the return of FSoW has made them a tad weaker. The new Lanni box will lead to Dissension being run in a lot of decks, which again hurts the Refugees somewhat.

playgroundpsychotic said:

In my book, KotS Jorah has gone from near auto-include to nigh unplayable just with First Snow coming back.

Staton said:

Aegon's Garden, Stormlands Fiefdom, Great Hall - All re-usable, unlike seat of Power, was the reason behind my choice.

My deck is built around anti-shadows Robert, so Fiery Kiss would be a major spanner in the works. Red Wedding just backfires too often. unless I'm running enough Asshai for some decent synergy, Melisandre just seems a bit expensive (core) or not likely to trigger her effect (RoR) - Might try putting in the Return of teh Others version tho. I do have Power of Blood, I was just getting mixed up with Power of Faith, my mistake.

House Baratheon - Knights of the Realm

Plots (7)
A Song of Summer
Loyalty Money Can Buy
Tourney for the Hand
The Power of Blood
Valar Morghulis
The King's Law
Retaliation!

Characters (34)
The Laughing Storm x 2
Renly Baratheon (Core) x2
Ser Cortnay Penrose 1
Marya Seaworth 1
Maester Lomys 2
Ser Davos Seaworth (Core) 1
Stormlands Bastard 1
Brienne of Tarth (Core) 1
Veteran Knight 1
Highgarden Refugee 3
Arena Knight 1
Stannis's Northern Cavalry 1
Knights of the Storm 1
Robert Baratheon (The Tower of the Hand) 3
Knight of Flowers (Tourney For The Hand) 2
Renly's Courtier 1
Vanguard Lancer 2
Margaery Tyrell (Tales from the Red Keep) 1
House Tyrell Guard 1
Herald of Storm's End 2
The Fox's Teeth 1
Former Champion 1
King's Champion 1
Stannis Baratheon (Core) 2
Ser Parmen Crane 1
Events (7)
Retreat 2
Distinct Mastery 2
Obey the King 1
Heart of the Stag 2
Locations (11)
Great Hall x2
Stormlands Fiefdoms x2
Narrow Sea x2
Highgarden x1
Aegon's Garden x2
King Robert's Chambers x1
Crossroads 1
Attachments (9)
Bodyguard 1
Hunting Spear 2
Lightbringer 2
Stinking Drunk 1
Warhammer 1
Accepted Destiny 2

Wow, how weird that most people are saying the Refugees above all else are auto-includes. I haven't used them in anything outside of a Clansmen deck for a year or more. And yes, that is counting other houses than Lannister.

Auto-include is really subjective. There are plenty of cards I am reading people list off that I don't believe are auto-includes because I don't think they all fit in to all deck themes. I think the appropriate question is "What cards are auto-includes in certain deck themes?".

I don't like the term "auto-include" either, although I think Bomb is on to something as to the deck type over house. Even a card as amazing as Frozen Solid doesn't necessarily fit into every Stark deck. For example, it doesn't have to go into a Stark Maester deck, which can use other things for attachment and location hate, but it's nearly required for Stark Siege.

That said, could it be safe to say that nearly every deck does/should run 1-4 of the "Street" reducers; Street of Steel, Street of Sisters, Shadowblack Lane, River Row, and somewhat more situationally Flea Bottom and the other two new ones? Personally, I run Flea Bottom and at least one other street in any non-KOTHH deck.

I also disagree with the refugees being auto-includes. I don't know if there is a single refugee or ally card that is an auto-include unless you're playing Lanni kneel and utilizing castellon of the rock. I mean look at dobbler, he avoids allys like the plague! Also I think it's safe to say choosing any of the restricted cards is an auto-include being that they are so powerful. while it is true you can build a decent deck without a single restricted card in it. All the top decks use one. In the end auto-include is a broad term but depending on the build you're going for it would be foolish not to run certain cards (i.e. city of shadows needs city of lies and Bara rush needs Edric storm). But I think its safe to say that if you're not playing "the hand's judgment" you are a fool. just kidding.

^^^not really kidding love that card....ok maybe kidding a little...ok no I'm not kidding.

I think auto includes only apply to decks you want to be especially reliable. You may not be able to fit the cards you want to add around your deck theme, and it does limit creativity to a degree, but decks will run better with them included.

For example, I just took Narrow Escape out of my clansman deck. Man... it's incredible the synergy it has with clansman. You can pop a 4 or 5 cost clansman back into play after Hidden Vale Pass as a surprise, or recover from Valar without a hitch. It gives me a security blanket to run valar myself and overcommit in the first 2 rounds. It strangely enough is paper shielded very rarely, so if I get the jump on someone early, they generally either waste their reset or lose their hand.

Buuut... then I switched it out for Pyromancer's Cache and the deck just runs way better. It makes me mad, but it's true. Your deck has to be prepared for stuff that you don't even know that can happen to it. I remember Ring's story about running the Martell brotherhood deck and getting nightmares played on Beric and valared in the first turn. That's crazy random and never happens, and yet it did... This is the situation where auto-includes will help you out immensely, where cards based around your deck theme wont really do much.

Anyway, here is my arguement for refugees, I'm not sure if I would count the ones without military as auto includes, but definitely the lanni one for sure.
-They are a free deck thinner (for setup)
-They are a free claim soak (that you can chump block with)
-They have broken challenge potential for their cost.
-Their drawback is negligible (It was free... This includes the discard at dominance, first snow of winter, dissention, and targ burn drawbacks)
-They are heaven on earth after you've been valared, especially if you are drawing off the deck

Yes, they are kind of boring, and they don't do much if you're on even ground, but if you're starting to feel the pressure, or they pop up in your setup hand, you will never be upset you drew one.

Gearhalt said:

Wait a minute....DARRYL?!