I have an experienced group of gamers (each player over 20 years experience) - we have played a lot of DW and really enjoyed it. We also regularly play Ars Magica. The list of systems we have played over the years is pretty long. I am considering either Dark Heresy, or Rogue Trader (or perhaps a mix of the two...) as the next system I run. If its a mix.. then I will likely allow the ascension rules (although I am not familiar with them).

The only thing I can really say about our group... is they like to be led by the nose. Its not that they can't think for themselves.. its just that we are all professionals and well.. by the time we kick off at 8pm at night after a day at the office (and we all have kids) we are all pretty tired.. and just want to have a fun game and not think too much. We like to kill stuff... but there has to be a story and a reason. In other words, our group likes a well told story with a big bang ending.

DW has been great.. but as marines the plots are pretty one dimensional ( we have played all the current modules) and we are ready for a change.

I like the idea of both RT and DH - but what would you recommend and why?

I don't have time to write my own modules, so also need advice on whats the best 'lead by the nose' module out there. I need something that the players always know which way to head and aren't left trying to decide what to do.

My gut tells me DH might be a better choice than RT - perhaps with the ascension rules to make it more interesting?

Any help and recommendations are greatly appreciated.

One last thing.. I don't have a huge amount of time to prep. each session; so it needs to be a easy flow module to get us started.

Hope that all makes sense?

Given your requirements I would recommend DH. DH is a "Street level" game where your party of "Acolytes" are typically given their orders and sent off to complete their mission or die trying! (Often the latter!) Additionally; There is a great deal of source material and adventure modules available for dark heresy. Lastly: DH tends to be less structured than DW but still basically mission based. RT places the characters in the position of finding there own missions and creating their own rewards. Such is the responsibility of command of a Voidship. Hope this helps...

Given your requirements I would recommend DH. DH is a "Street level" game where your party of "Acolytes" are typically given their orders and sent off to complete their mission or die trying! (Often the latter!) Additionally; There is a great deal of source material and adventure modules available for dark heresy. Lastly: DH tends to be less structured than DW but still basically mission based. RT places the characters in the position of finding there own missions and creating their own rewards. Such is the responsibility of command of a Voidship. Hope this helps...

If you did not started DH, I would not suggest it. The system has alot of minor (or perhaps Major) bugs that were dealt with in the other system (just compare weapon traits like "Scatter").

On the other hand, if the players are "led by the nose" RT might not be the game for them. I think that this game needs a little more iniatiave on behalf of the players then games where you do have an NPC-superior telling you what to do.

Have you ever consideres BlackCrusade? If you take the "Champions of Chaos rushing from Quest to Quest on behalf of Infamy and dark Masters" it is pretty much your regular high-fantasy setting... with Chainswords & whorship of sinister gods.

BC is flat out superior to all other games combined when it comes to mechanics. The system has been beautifully streamlined, rebalanced and adjusted. Even if you have no interest in playing Chaos, it's worth getting this book just for the new combat rules - we're using them in all 40k games right now and they are much more enjoyable and tactically engaging than the previous system. The new weapon stats are also great - finally, each and every weapon category has it's distinct niche and remains relatively useful throughout the game, which adds even more to the tactical layer of play.

On the other end of the scale, there's Dark Heresy. The setting is still good and well fleshed-out after all the sourcebooks, and the idea of playing Inquisitorial Acolytes is as sound as it was when the game first came out, but the system is a mess. Career tables are full of random advancements, weapon stats are crappy (at the end of the day, it's Melta for heavy hitting, Bolt for everything else and SP autoweapons for rooting out heresy on a budget, other weapons are too gimped to compete), the base system shows it's age, compatibility with other games is virtually nonexistent, the power creep is horrendous... and then there's Ascension. You don't want to touch Ascension with a ten foot pole, it's a book that single-handedly destroyed all my hopes of ever enjoying Dark Heresy for me and my group.

Rogue Trader is much more solid, and it still has the most awesome premise of all the 40k games. It might not be fit for your group, though, as it's hard to lead the players by hand when their characters command a flying space city capable of leveling planets. Still, the game is awesome. It's like Star Trek, except if Kirk was a bigoted, cynical ****** enslaving entire planets for profit and entertainment, Spock became a conniving bastard who can only see people as numbers and Bones and Scotty merged into a proto-Borg ruling the technical aspects of the ship with an iron fist... okay, so it's not like Star Trek at all, but I hope you get my point

So it's not just me! Others want to play Dark Heresy, and the system is a train wreck (in comparison with the later games). Given that Playing Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, or Black Crusade doesn't solve that problem, there must be SOMEONE who has figured out a workable solution to running Dark Heresy with something: rule mods, Fate, Gurps, Savage Worlds, BlackCrusade something. I've seen that people have said they've done it, but I haven't seen it.

It's all a metter of your taste, but you can't go wrong with Dark Heresy. Like people said before, it's structured, but only up to a point where there is a lot of freedom of choice for the players.

Rules wise there isn't a lot different from Dark Heresy to Black Crusade. There are a few minor rule chances over time, some for better some for worse , but nothing too drastic. People seem to exaggerate the "improvement". We pretty much only use the newest ruleset as errata for DH, and then pick and choose rules from the other systems too add to DH, since DH is the base every thing is build from any way. For instance we use RT's space ship stuff, DW for marine NPCs, and BC for newest version of errata and bad guys.

I'd say dark Heresy has the highest risk to reward relationship. This is evident in the psychic power system in DH, it's very dangerous to use but also very rewarding. They toned it down in the later systems to be more "safe", but also less epic accoriding to the people I game with. The characters also start of very weak, but over time turn into very effective agents. So, it's teh experiences in while playing them that will mostly shape the characters. As opposed to starting off with an already strong character with lesser character development through playing the character.

In DH character can start off as a nobody and eventually become a major player in the future of the Calixus Sector. I've played my gaurdsman from rank 1 to 12, and the setting just becomes more fun as we progress and gain more power. Going form a Gaurdsman fresh out of basic training lost on some swamps to a Crusader influencing events on a planetary and sector wide scale is pretty amazing.

In DH the characters aren't going to be your stereotypical heroes like in DW, the inquisition don't need those kind of people. They need someone expendable to get them the information they need, and if those expendable assets some now pull though and prove they are worth something they might be rewarded with more responsibility and support.

furashgf said:

Right now we're not playing DH at all. We ran a short campaign just prior to the release of BC, so we didn't get to benefit from all the new rules. Converting DH fully to BC shouldn't be too difficult. I have a set of conversion rules in mind, but can't get myself to writing it down.

Catachan said:

I disagree vehemently. The new rules aren't perfect, but they're a drastic improvement. Just the new rules of multiple attack actions completely change the dynamic of combat.

Catachan said:

You call it high risk to reward ratio. I call it pointless randomness and Psykers either spawning daemons on the team's backs or pwning the encounter with one successfully rolled blast.

Catachan said:

False dichotomy. Characters in other systems still have plenty of room to grow.

Morangias said:

The multiple attack action rules in RT and DW is the same as DH. BC is the only exception, and the gameplay doesn't change all that much.

Here is an example:

Right before BC I could get my crusader to do 4 attacks (lightning attack and an off hand attack). With his WS at 50 he would get about 2 or 3 single attack hits a turn if he was doing good. With the BC rules I'd roll 2 lighting attacks at -10 each for each hand, and end up with about 2 or 3 hits on average. If I get any thing more than 3 hits I'm lucky, whuch means I rolled less than 10 on one of my attack dice, and missed with the other. Or I could just barely pass both rolls at 40% each and get 2 or 3 hits. Going above 60 WS is very hard, and boosting WS is the only way to take advantage of BCs rules to eventually get more hits than using DH's.

I don't feel that any one way of doing it has any benefit to me over the other. I'm will more likely get at least 1 or 2 hits the DH way, and could get more maximum hits the BC way. The same thing can be said about RT and DW versus BC.

I rolled up a 25000xp Chaos Marine in BC to compare to my 25000xp Crusader and he ended up having about the same maxed WS as my DH character. So character wise BC and DH is on par in that respect.

I just did some rolls at 57WS and assuming two weapons being used. DH got average of 2.3 hits, and BC 2.6 hits. If a character was only using one weapon, the Average number of lighting attack hits for DH would be higher than BC. DH rolling 3 times instead of 4, and BC rolling 1 time instead of 2.

The fact that lightning attacks are half actions as opposed to full actions in one of the systems is an area I have yet to exploit. At least in DH two weapon fighting isn't clearly the superior option.

The point I'm trying to make is that there in no clear night and day difference with results while playing.

Now about the psychic powers. If given a choice I'd go with the DH ones for the exact reasons you mentioned. They are epic. As for winning encounters, that depends on the encounter.

In DH, two weapon fighting IS the absolutely superior option, because with TWF you can have up to 4 attacks, while your Reactions are capped at 3. If two warriors of equal prowess fight, one with two weapons and one with one weapon, the one with two weapons is at a clear advantage because each round he rolls one attack that his opponent has no hope of avoiding. "Curses! A weapon in off-hand, the only tactic my fighting style is helpless against!"

In BC, the max attack rolls you can take without Traits/Mutations is 2, while the max number of Reactions you have without special defensive actions is 2. That means two equally matched warriors always have a shot at evading all the attacks from a single enemy, TWF or not.

As for the average number of attacks, you're missing a lot of important details. For one, multiple attack options are now just that, options rather than flat out enhancements to your combat capacity. Ditto for new Semi/Full Auto rules on ranged weapons. In DH, people either charged to get close to the enemy or stood in place doing the maximum number of attacks the rules allowed them. It doesn't matter that my Adept has only 30 WS, I bought Swift Attack so it's foolish for me to not make two attacks per turn whenever viable. More importantly, it doesn't matter that the same Adept has only 30 BS as well, with a Full Auto weapon he gets a respectable 50% chance of hitting anyone, and a chance of scoring multiple hits at the same time.

Not so in BC, where a character with the attack Characteristic of 30 actually gimps his chances of hitting anything if he tries any of the multiple attack options. Now, it's more reasonable for him to Delay until the enemy has no Reactions, or position himself so that he gets a circumstance bonus, or Aim... you know, playing it tactically rather than applying all your force to all your actions in hopes it will eventually punch through.

But why am I wasting my time? You're playing Ascension and liking DH psychic rules, so clearly no talk of balance or combat dynamic will sway you. Have fun playing a Crusader and watching the Primaris kill multiple greater daemons per turn with no risk to himself or the team while the Vindicare outdoes you as a defensive fighter.

I feel like I was missing the point of this thread getting lost the details tryign to debunk some pretty short sighted statements made about DH. I would like to conclude that I'm having tremendous fun playing my character in DH, I have no balance concerns. And any we had we corrected ourselves without much frustration/anger. RT and DH use pretty much the same rules, with the RT ones being DH rules updated with the errara available for DH.

So, Dark Heresy rules are at least equal to RTs. The psychic powers are more exciting. The characters more badass. There is more direction to the game. No hand holding forcing stats and traits uppon the characters. The experience is more grimdark. Less "toned down" content. Getting to mostly deal with every day imperial life, or what's lurking just beneath it. Down and dirty from the start. Eventually reaching hights of power undreamed of by a starting character.

In DH a character ends up either dead, insane, corrupt beyond redemption, or a very powerfull inquisitoinal agent.

It all depends on if you would want to do. Fly around space and do space stuff, or covertly fight the powers trying to destroy humanity from within and not get killed or worse doing it.

I agree with Catachan, DH is fun; I've ran a game almost since Day 1 for a year or so, moved to RT and other games, and restarted another one about a year ago, and it's going great with the PCs, I don't have any problem as others have claimed about "Balance" and "Realism" since in a universe where some guy wiht half a rusty computer brain can have you executed because you didn't say a prayer before turning the light on, or some shadowy man arriving one day and killing you because you read a certain book that others judge dangerous, either attribute is out the window.

DH is more akin to D&D if you allow me the comparaison, as the PCs starts lame and ends up epic, so there is a bit more character development angle than in RT, where your character are starting out epic, with epic gear, more money than they even bother to count and a whole 'wild' sector as your play pen.

Psyker-wise, DH got the goods way more than RT, if only because of the minor powers available. Want to have an offensive psykic power with your Astropath? Well wait until rank 2 or 3, when you'll have buy the 2-3 preriquises powers to get a rather weak, one enemy, 10m range psykic scream. Psyker in DH I can start with Spams, or Forget Me, or Cameleon or... in short more flexibility than jsut being a 'one-trick poney' so to speak for the first 3-4 ranks of Astropath. "Quick Captain, let me telepatically connect everyone so we can talk with our minds!" "Yeah...I'll use the vox thank you."

As for those who seems hellbent to bad mouthing DH comparded to the more recent games, don't listen to them. 'Seems like they're more willing to break the system than playing wihtin it and having fun. Melta for heavy work, bolt for the rest, autoguns' the cheapman's way out? Please, I can say the same for RT, or DW, or BC. Mechanical wise, they might be 'the best' but using that logic, that means every fighter in D&D must take a halberd, as it is both piercing, slashing and you can do a trip attack without having your opponent have a free attack and no need to buy a feat for that. Better than your puny longsword/shield c-c-c-c-combo if you ask me.

DH is more structured to me, only because it is happening in 'civilization' when RT is in "wild space", plus in DH investigation runs deeper a bit, so it would be easy to lead your players from one place gathering clues, to the stake-out to getting the gear and kicking the door and killing about but it might need a bit more work from you GM. While RT is a bit easier (most big things like planet explorations or clue gathering can be done with an extended dice roll.) not to mention you forgo some minor details, like crews or cash a GM got to be prepared for almostany/every thing, as with that much power and influence, the PCs will ask something or go somehwere you did not plan (might less with your PCs but who knows). Also, more chance in Rt that the PC may end up doing their own adventure; make a few pirates attack them in space, and then it's a mission to secure a vessel for their own fleet.

Braddoc said:

1. Who was talking about realism?

2. So, there is no need for balance because the setting is crazy? C'mon, this doesn't make the least bit of sense.

Braddoc said:

DH is similar to D&D in one more way: casters break the game.

Braddoc said:

This "flexibility" is exactly what makes DH Psykers gamebreaking. "One trick pony" Psykers from other 40k games can still get ridiculously powerful, but at least they can't cover every angle imaginable.

Braddoc said:

Believe me, I'd love to have fun in DH. I even used to once. But then our Psyker hit 80 WP, our gun-slinging Cleric never used the best craftsmanship plasma pistol gifted to him by the Mechanicum because he thought it's utter crap, and our Dusk-born Moritat found herself utterly useless in an Ascension game.

Braddoc said:

You could say that, but in the case of BC you'd be dead wrong. In BC, characters with less than 40 BS have no business touching autoguns if they plan on shooting anything, las weapons can almost match bolters for damage in a pinch, and plasma weapons are actually very desirable as long as you can manage to get them at best craftsmanship. Melta is still the heavy hitter, just as it should be, and the bolter is still the Mario of Imperial arsenal - not quite excelling at anything, but still good all around.

Braddoc said:

Yes, and? D&D 3.x is well renowned for it's rampant imbalance and ridiculous adherence to ivory tower design. Some people cannot comprehend that and insist on playing monks, sword and board fighters, or really, anything that isn't a full caster class or at least a gish build. Some people do comprehend that but would still rather play a subpar build for various reasons. More power to them, but their attitudes have no bearing on the fact that D&D 3.x is fundamentally imbalanced.

Same principle applies to DH. Just because some people manage to have fun despite the rules being broken, or because some GMs manage to find a satisfactory set of houserules to make the game fun for them, doesn't change the fact that DH rules are fundamentally imbalanced. Just because you or other people swear by DH setting doesn't change the fact that BC is mechanically strictly superior.

Again I'd like to point out DH, RT and DW uses the same combat rules. I really should not have to go all "DH defense force" where there is no real issue in the first place.

Catachan said:

That's not quite accurate. The system has been expanded and tweaked with each new core release, with better or worse results. Also, it's meaningless to compare core combat rules in separation from Talents, weapon and armor rules, and psychic powers, and those have all changed noticably between game lines.

Morangias said:

Dark Heresy up to date in all of the areas you mentioned, since it keeps getting updated.

The weapons and gear is up to date throughout the inclusion of new weapons and gear in the supplements. The gear listed in Inquisitor's Handbook, Ascension, Book of Judgement, Demon Hunter, and Blood of Martyrs adds up to a whole lot of gear. The stuff from the newer supplement books are up to date. As an example the plasma weapons in Ascension is updated ones to match the RT ones. There is no need to go outside of DH for almost any gear. Dh also has the benefit of having pretty unique stuff.

The psychic powers will obviously differ from system to system. In DH you play a psyker, in RT you play an astropath (less powerful), And in DW you play a super human with willpower of steel.

The talents in RT is just the ones from DH updated with Errata 3.0. So, no change there. DH introduces a lot of new talents in the supplements like Ascension, Blood of Martyrs and Demon Hunter that is unique.

Saying that DH is somehow behind because of changes in other systems is ignoring the fact that DH keeps getting updated. If you put the DH core book next tot he RT one then the DH one will look out dated, but that is ignoring the changes in the Errata and supplements. The updates are not super obvious if you aren't looking to find them, since they are natuarally rolled into the system through the supplements. If you have limited experience with DH then you probably won't notice, and come to conclusions like the one quoted above.

We play utilizing DH, RT and DW resources at the same time, I have experience with the three systems interacting. There are no drastic differences mechanics wise, other than the stuff that should obviously differ. Dark Heresy is more than fine, I think RT needs some help content wise.

New weapons in supplements don't mean the system's being updated, they mean power creep is going on. Right now, most stuff from before Blood of Martyrs is simply obsolete, I don't consider it a good thing and it certainly doesn't help a new player trying to get into the game.

It doesn't matter if the differences between psychic rules make sense from a fluff standpoint (and nothing about DH psychic rules makes any sense from any standpoint), what matters is they produce a different gameplay, including combat. For one thing, ongoing buffs in DH are lolrandom like the rest of the system, they are nearly useless in DW and in RT, they are bread and butter for combat psykers.

Talents have been mostly updated to RT rules, I'll give you that. Not much a feat considering RT rules are equally obsolete right now.

Then, there's the matter of combat actions, and they weren't updated at all in DH. Rules on two weapon fighting are likewise in constant flux between gamelines.

No, it's not the same system. These are four similar but different systems.

You can just use BC combat mechanics and weapon stats. I see no problem here. They even have tables with reference, which skills/talents/traits/weapon traits were changed in BC.
Then you have classes, with somewhat strange advance tables. Well, change that for the BC ones too. Just rename them appropriately.

The only thing that cannot be fixed with this right out of the box - psychic powers. Well, probably vecause i don't care about psykers and haven't read RT/BC psychic powers section. Maybe it requires complete rework. However i love the idea that any use of power can trigger Anomaly, so i won't go with the BC approach.

And all this just because DH has the most appealing setting. Never liked the idea of being a chaos cultist or a rich ****** with a flying city under his command.

Morangias said:

The gear introduced is the stuff form RT and BC, with new some stuff mixed in. There is no power creep going on, it's just standerdising the gear between systems. At least DH has sccess to every thing, like astartes gear. I have looked at the gear section in my copy of BC and DH has most of that stuff with the same stats so no big changes there. Not a lot of new stuff has been introduced after Blood of Martyrs, so that new stuff can't somehow make the "old" stuff obsolete if that same stuff hasn't changed over any of the systems. Like I said the stuff introduced later in DH is mostly stuff to standerdize gear between systems. I have not suddenly started using gear out of BC since I can find all of the obviousy non BC unique gear in DH somewhere with the same stats. So I'd say gear is the thing that changed the least over the cousrse of the changes that happened. What changes did occur got inserted into DH in later supplements.

As for new players, I guess they have a reason to do some reading then. That should not be unexpected.

Morangias said:

That is why poeple like DH style psychic powers, it's not like a video game where you play the group buffer/healer and you are going on some sort of raid to get epic loots. You are playing a psyker, some guy that has so much power he is on the verge of meltdown. Having some sort of control over those power is just a bonus. That's why astropaths aren't really seen as a threat, they have way more control of what little power they have.

Here is is notable moments with psychic powers. We have had a psycher go full blown meltdwon demonn spawn on us... twice. It was halarious both times. The first time was a PC, where they player chose not to reroll or burn a fate point just to see what would happen. The second time was spawned after an arbetrator shot in NPC using warp tech in an open head wound with a tear gass grenade. A fire demon thing spawned, and it was taken out by that same rank 2 NPC with fire axe off all things. Only time Ive ever seen a psyker try and buff my character was an eldar one created from RT. Obviously my character tried to resist it like any good imerial guardsman, I resisted the xeno witch (resistance psychic powers, with wards). I think the buff was for +10 will power or some thing.

Fighting 7 untrained rogue psykers at the same time was also a memorable experience for the group. At one point every one switched bodies, when one of the psykers tried to cast a lighting attack. Then the second time it happened my character at least randomly ended up in his own body. One of the perals rolled in that fight feared one of the PCs so hard he peed himself and passed out. The psykers was more of danger to themselves than we were, at least half of them passed out because of the crazyness going on.

Gameplay wise it's always fun when one of the players rolls to use a psychic power, since there is a chance of it going bad in some fantastic fassion. "did you roll any 9s?" Like the time our Vindicare wanted to sue a minor power he had for some mundane task and it backfired fearing every one at the party we were atending to the point whre the body guards of the nobles opened fire on the guests. The Judge in our grous and my crusader put a stop to that real fast in a non lethal fassion. So, we ended up saving the day form a situation we created, with no one having any proof to blame us.

Morangias said:

I don't have my RT and DH books with me now but I can already picture my face when I compare them and realise they are pretty much the same like I did with the talents and gear....

Catachan said:

No power creep? I'm relieved to hear that. How about you take a plasma pistol from the corebook and I take the one from Ascension/RT, see how they're balanced against each other.

Catachan said:

Now you're just talking nonsense. Let me show you something:

DH core plasma pistol: 30m S/-/- d10+6 Pen 6 Recharge, Overheats, no Maximal

IH Kronos plasma pistol (described as uniquely powerful): 30m S/-/- d10+6 Pen 6 Recharge /Maximal 40m S/-/- d10+10 Pen 6 Recharge, Overheats

Ascension/RT Ryza plasma pistol 30m S/2/- d10+6 Pen 6 Overheats / Maximal 40m S/2/- 2d10+6 Pen 8 Recharge, Overheats

BC plasma pistol 40m S/2- d10+7 Pen 8 Overheats / Maximal 50m S/2/- 2d10+9 Pen 10 Recharge, Overheats

Add to that the fact that Overheats works completely differently in BC.

Power creep in DH? Definitely. Same stats as in BC? Definitely not.

For another example, show me the firing modes rules for las weapons in DH

Catachan said:

Except when they weren't, as shown above.

Catachan said:

What is unexpected is for people who buy a sourcebook after starting a campaign to not need throwing their entire equipment out because all the new stuff is flat out better. Likewise, it's unexpected for people who bought a sourcebook promising them extended campaign life to get Ascension instead.

Catachan said:

Great, except when you're drooling over your psychic awesomeness, other people want to participate and have fun as well. But they can't because you're either making their presence on the battlefield a liability (because you can take on the entire encounter yourself, probably with a single manifestation of power) or randomly causing a TPK in the middle of an otherwise winnable fight

Those "memorable moments" you speak of can happen in other systems as well. On my first session of BC, two characters got possessed by Greater Daemons, completely throwing the plot off the rails and causing much fun. The difference is, it only happened when the psykers pushed for greater effect and not at totally random moments

Catachan said:

If you read them as carefully and with so much comprehension as you did the weapon rules, yeah, you might find them the same.

Ok... so you like BC. That's great. I'm sure we're all happy for you. The OP asked for a comparison between RT and DH though. When someone asks for a decision between coffee and tea do you sit there trying to convince them to drink wine?

Is BC a good game? Of course it is, but to try and put it on some high post above the other three games is a bit of a stretch. The rules are basically the same, but it has a more refined and balanced (IMO) combat system (especially with the way multiple attacks/multiple shots are worked out). But, like the other three, they're all different games and, in the end, whether someone plays one or the other should come down to the setting and the chances for role-playing, not whether X weapon is more powerful or whether the psychic system is 'better'.

BYE

Morangias said:

In that case the plasma pistol stats in Ascension is used to update the stats in the core book. All the player needs to do is change the weapon stats on the character sheet to represent the newer stats. The player really didn't gain or loose any thing, he just got his weapon in line with the newer stats. I won't be surprised of we see plasma weapons with BC stats show up in Only War, if not, it does not really matter. At least DH and RT is on the same level, with DW in it's own little Space Marine world.

All this does not constitute "power creep" in the slighest, it's only an update the stuff of the older system to match newer ones. This "power creep" is a buzz word from the highly competitive table top game and can't be applied to a non competative tabletop RPG. All that stuff about people with gear form the core book having to "throw out all their gear" is a blatant exageration, the ony a few of the more exotic weapons have actually changed (see plasma weapons). Making a few stat changes on one's character sheet should not induce too much rage.

Again this is making an issue of something that is really a non-issue in the most illogical manner.

You will probably keep picking/fabricating the a new aspect of the game you personally do not like/understand and then some how use it as your banner in your anti Dark Heresy crusade. I wish you luck.

Catachan said:

Wow, you seriously don't comprehend the difference between a rule and a house rule, do you?

Catachan said:

Show me a passage in Ascension that presents Ryza plasma weapons as an update of previous plasma weapons rather than a new separate statblock. Oh, but you can't, because it's not there.

Just so we're on an equal footing, ignoring the old crap and replacing it with somewhat better rules from later supplements is a valid houserule, but it's a houserule nonetheless. And when I say DH is old, clunky and imbalanced, I'm obviously talking about rules as-written, not houserules, because everything can be made playable with enough houserules, which has no bearing on the quality of the actual product. To quote Mythbusters, you can polish a turd, but it's still a turd.

Catachan said:

Is that a smell of Stormwind Fallacy in the air?

Catachan said:

I'm not on an anti-DH crusade. Well, I'm on an anti-Ascension crusade, because this book is the platonic ideal of a horrible RPG supplement, but that's beside the point. It being, DH has a share of serious problems, and your writing them off because your enjoyment priorities don't include things like inter-party balance or the team not risking a TPK whenever the Psyker so much as thinks about using his power, is not very helpful to people who actually ponder buying and playing this game, because they might not share your very relaxed expectations.

H.B.M.C. said:

Sometimes people narrow their options down for a good reason. Sometimes, though, they simply don't realize all options they have. Is it a sin to make sure they're informed?

H.B.M.C. said:

Again, different people, different priorities. My team is very mindful of both the roleplaying and mechanical aspects of the game, to the point where we can't enjoy ourselves if either of them is inadequate.