I was looking at the Eliodon transformation, and I was wondering how taking Supernatural Physical/Spiritual characteristics worked. Do I just decide what my those stats are going to be up to 15? I was thinking about having a Magic oriented transformation, where the PC gets the Gift, Supernatural Spiritual Characteristics, and some casting bonuses. But base Int pre-transformation is 5. Though bumping it up to a 15 and then grabbing paths would be good. Or would natural knowledge 60 of one path (like destruction or healing) be more in line with this? Anyway, wanted to make sure you just choose your characteristics with those.

For supernatural Physical/Spiritual characteristics: This Advantages don't make your attributes higher, they only extends the maximum. For example with Supernatural Spiritual characteristics and the INT value of 5: You would have an INT value of 5 but the maximum would be 15. So, it wouldn't increase your INT.

But there is the Advantages "Attribute Increased +1": "This ability only can be acquired through the use of spells that grant monster abilities or to create racial modifers of a natural ethnicity. In these cases, they grant +1 to a Characteristic an it can be acquiered again to increase a different one. It cannot be chosen twice for the same Characteristic."
There is also a +2 and +3 version (and +3 can be chosen more than one for one characteristic, but only give an +1 after the first (so the first time +3, the second time +4 (+3 from first and +1 from second), third time +5 (first +3, second +1, third +1), and so on).

For the magic: If you want to use an path normal, you must learn it. To get the "gift" through a transformation doesn't mean you have learned any spells, so I wouldn't allow it. But, if you chose "natural knowledge of a path", it is a different case (the person haven't learned it), so it would be okay.

So long,

Oh, so the character's Intelligence or if they had the gift in transformation wouldn't matter, if you just grabbed a natural path? Or would they still need 'The Gift' in said transformation to buffer their casting in those natural paths?

You must have "the gift" (is written on the same page 285), but I have found another problem:

"Natural knowledge of a path: [...] This advantage cannot be chosen through spells that allow the acquisition of abilities."
And I would say, that Eliodon would be a "spell" in this context.

Another idea could be "Innate Magic" from page 294, but it wouldn't be the same, as an whole path.

So long,

No. Ki isn't a spell. It's a technique. Making it more awesome than spells.

Sabaki said:

First: Eliodon isn't a Technique, it is an Ars Magnus (if we start with "it is not this, but this", than is should be used correct).

Second: As the Core Book was released, the only ways to get monster abilities was to be a monster or to use spells. So, in the context of the rules, I would say, that "spell" means every method to obtain monster abilities, except to be a monster (because it is possible, that the game designers hadn't thought about an Ars Magnus, which gives someone monster abilities). Now, we can stay true to the words and say "Ars Magnus not equal spell" or we can try to understand the meaning/reason of the rule, which would mean, that you can only obtain the "natural knowledge of a path" through the player-advantage or to be a monster from the beginning (my interpretation and opinion) and not with the method to transform in someway into a monster (because that would mean, the char would get "knowledge" only for the reason, he transformed in something).

Like I said, this is my opinion, if your GM says, that is okay to use Eliodon to get "natural knowledge", than it is okay.

So long,

I see no reason not to allow a player without The Gift to get Natural Knowledge of a Path by using this loophole. But, without The Gift they cannot cast spells even if they know them . This would work much like a character with 15Gnosis knowing High and Divine magic, yes he knows them in theory but the actual ability to cast them is beyond his grasp. This would be a complete waist, unless he obtained The Gift later. Then he would then be able to cast them, much as the character with 15Gnosis getting 25 Gnosis allows casting of the High Magic spells he knows, and getting 40Gnosis allows him to cast Divine Magic.

The player advantage "natural knowledge of a path" is written under "Magic Advantages". And there is also written: "The following Advantages can be aquired only if the character has the Gift of magic."

With the monster ability "natural knowledge of a path", which is under "Magical and Psychic Advantages" on page 285: "They can only be chosen by creatures with the Gift or with psychic powers, respectively."

So, the rule says, that is only possible with the gift. I also think, that with "knowledge" isn't meant the theoretical knowledge, but the practical knowledge. For example: I know a bit about metal work etc. (theoretical knowledge, which would be the "Occult"-skill by magic), but I can't blacksmith something (practical knowledge or skill).

I also think, you can't really learn something if you don't use it. You can't learn blacksmithing without training and so you can't learn spells if you can't practice them (which would requiere "the gift").

So long,

First you are probably right about it not being allowed to someone without The Gift. But, personally, I don't see a reason not to allow a character to weaken themselves if they want...but you know, thats just me .

F3nr1s said:

Second, while I do I see your point about practical vs theoretical, I have to disagree. One, because this creates a problem in explaining how a Wizard learns High/Divine Magic without the required Gnosis. As that they cannot practice these spells because they are beyond them. Two, the problem with your example and the situation is that spells are, basically, a purely mental activity. This means theoretical knowledge is practical knowledge, for all intense and purposes anyway. There is a large difference between practical and theoretical in many things, but in purely mental activity I don't see it. [Of course if magic worked slightly differently, for example if they were using Onmyodo, there could be argument for it.] Then again, I think I'm just splitting hairs at this point.