Re-posted from the 2 Champs, 1 Chump Episode 47 thread. The topic is: can you choose to discard 2 power from your House in order to satisfy Shield Islands Dromon's choice, even when you don't have 2 power on your House?

Shield Islands Dromon says:

"After an opponent plays a location, put Shield Islands Dromon on the bottom of your deck to have that player choose to either place that location on the bottom of his or her deck or discard 2 power from his or her House."

The White Book says:

"Each time you lose a challenge as the attacker, kneel a standing Kingsguard character you control or discard 1 power from your House."

Here is ktom's ruling on The White Book:

"You must do one or the other successfully.

That means that if both options are open to you (i.e., you have a standing Kingsguard character and power on your House), you may choose which penalty is applied.

If only one option is open to you (i.e., all your Kingsguard characters are kneeling but you have power on your House or you have standing Kingsguard character but no power on your House), you must take the option that is left to you. You can't say "I choose to kneel the kneeling Kingsguard character" - which would result in an unsuccessful resolution - because you have another option in resolving the effect (discarding the power) that will be successful.

If neither option is open to you (i.e., all your Kingsguard characters are kneeling and you have no power on your House), the effect will fizzle completely."

Theon Greyjoy (PotS), because Kennon used it as the basis for his Shield Islands Dromon ruling, says:

After any player loses a challenge by 4 or more total STR, he or she names either "character" or "location," then chooses and discards from play (cannot be saved) 1 card of the named type he or she controls, if able."

Just looking at the three cards, Theon looks out of place. So, even if Shield Islands Dromon does allow you to choose an option that you can't successfully complete, I don't think Theon was a good example. The only thing you have to do to successfully complete Theon's choice is name either "character" or "location;" the rest just kind of follows.

Also cross-posting, I'd like to ask how these would be different from the way game of cyvasse works; being able to choose to kneel an already knelt character.

Game of Cyvasse and The White Book seem to have opposite rulings. Which doesn't make sense.

For game of Cyvasse, you can make a choice that you know will be unsuccessful (kneeling a knelt character), even though you have an option that will end in success; but, for The White Book, you can't make a choice that is unsuccessful while you have an option that will end in success?

The difference is in the wording of The White Book. You even copied it. It says you must kneel a standing Kingsguard character. If you have none, you can't choose that option.

Conversely, Game of Cyvasse, only says you need to kneel a character with an intrigue icon. It doesn't say anything about that character needing to be standing.

That's why they have seemingly different rulings; because they have distinctly different wordings.

I'm not asking why Cyvasse can target kneeling characters. I'm asking why you are allowed to choose an option that you know will be unsuccessful with Cyvasse, but not with White Book.

sWhiteboy said:

But as for the rest of it, you are asking about the following:

Shield Islands Dromon: "After an opponent plays a location, put Shield Islands Dromon on the bottom of your deck to have that player choose to either place that location on the bottom of his or her deck or discard 2 power from his or her House."

The White Book says:"Each time you lose a challenge as the attacker, kneel a standing Kingsguard character you control or discard 1 power from your House."

Look more closely at them. Shield Island Dromon essentially says; "Choose A or B. Do what you have chosen."

The White Book essentially says; "Do A or do B."

Do you see the difference here? In the Shield Island Dromon, the choice you are given is specific. The word "choose" is used and two possibilities are laid out for you. The choice you make then determines how the rest of the effect resolves. If you meet all the play restrictions and initiate an effect legally, it doesn't matter whether it can resolve successfully or not. But The White Book does not give you a specific choice, only an implicit one. In order to resolve the effect, you must do one or the other - and without a specific choice, you have to do whichever is available to you.

Look at it this way. I tell you that you can leave the room through the door or the window, but you must leave the room. You look around and only see a window. Your implicit choice is meaningless because you are compelled to leave the room, even though one of the exits you are "supposed" to have available to you is not. That's The White Book.

Now imagine I tell you to choose either "window" or "door," then say you can only leave the room through whichever you have chosen. The fact that there isn't a door does not make you choose window because the only thing you are compelled to do is make a choice (because of the word "choose"). Since you are not compelled to leave the room itself, you can stay in a door with only windows by choosing "door." That is Shield Island Dromon.

In short, the difference is the word "choose." By using the word "choose," SID compels only the choice. By failing to use the word "choose," WB compels any possible resolution.

So, whenever a card asks you to make a choice, that is the only thing that you have to successfully do? Everything else is only completed as far as it can be?

Thanks!

sWhiteboy said:

The other side of it is that if you are not given a specific choice (ie, the word "choose" does not appear), one of the two possible outcomes for the effect must resolve successfully (unless, for some reason, neither of them can).