Hi, I am a Spanish player of this game, sorry but my level of english is poor.

i have a one question, if i have a timett and a tyrion lannister in play and my opponent play valar morghulis, i can kneel timett for save a tyrion lannister. The question is: Timett will dead or he "save" for his pasive?

Thanks, Koci.

Well, your terminology is off, but your end result is right.

Technically, Timmet is not "saved." "Saved" means you use a triggered effect to interrupt a killing effect (or another effect that would remove the character from play) and stop it from resolving successfully for a particular character. However, less technically, by kneeling Timmet before the resolution of Valar, his constant effect is applicable and he is considered to be "cannot be killed" before Valar resolves. So when Valar does resolve, Timmet ignores the killing effect.

Thanks for your quick reply Ktom!

So, When Valar Morghulis is reveled, I use the salvation response of Tyrion Lannister, kneel a Clansman character to save him. Timmet is kneeling in that moment... Valar Morghulis would kill Timett?

Koci said:

No.

1. When Valar Morghulis is revealed, you interrupt it by using Tyrion's Response to save him by kneeling a Clansman character - in this case, Timmet.
2. Timmet is now kneeling, so according to his constant effect, he cannot be killed.
3. When Valar Morghulis then resolves, Timmet ignores it and lives.

So, you have two characters that survived Valar, Tyrion (standing) and Timmet (kneeling). Tyrion was saved, Timmet was simply not killed.

The difference between Tyrion being saved and Timmet just not being killed only really matters in the larger picture of things if you have an "after a character is saved" Response. Tyrion qualifies for the "after a character is saved" Response, Timmet does not.

i understand the explenation completely

i do however have a question that relates to the above.
can i kneel multiple clansman (including timmet) to keep saving tyrion from valar ? and in that way saving tyrion and all clansman cannot be killed ?

I think that the answer is no, tyrions response is: Response: Kneel a Clansman character to save Tyrion Lannister from being killed. There is no variable, such as X clansmen, nor can you use use the response more than once per trigger.

Underworld40k said:

exatly what i thought thanks

To throw one more consideration in there: Once Tyrion is saved successfully, he isn't going to be killed by the effect anymore. Therefore, there is nothing to save him from, and the play restrictions for the save effect are essentially not met.

ktom said:

ktom said:

Ktom, I don't really agree for that opinion.

Example:

Player A attack B with Military Claim 2.

B was defeated.

B have to choose 2 characters to die from a standing Timett / Tyrion(CoR) and another one.

Then B choose Tyrion and Timett to fulfill the claim 2.

And then B knelt Timett to save Tyrion.

Will Timett be killed anyway?

If not, do B must choose another one as the claim victim?

I think once B choose a standing Timett to be a legal target to die, and Timett doesn't be saved or Kill doesn't been cancelled, then Timett must die for it.

Both the example and VALAR go the same way.

The card of "Blood of Dragon" in Core set also has a similar issue if it is going with Daenerys Targaryen (QoD).

Uncle Joker said:

Nope. Remember that "cannot be killed" means two entirely separate things:

1. When a kill effect initiates , the "cannot be killed" character is an illegal target. It may not be chosen to die.
2. Targeted or not, when a kill effect resolves , the "cannot be killed" character ignores the resolution and simply doesn't die.

Initiation and resolution are two different things - and because of the save/cancel step, things can be applied in-between. It is possible, though very rare, for a character to be legally chosen to die at initiation, but legally ignore the effect at resolution. Timett is one of those rare situations.

If a character is legitimately "cannot be killed" at the time a killing effect resolves, it doesn't die. Period. That's what "cannot be killed" means. And, since the word "cannot" is absolute in this game, the application of "cannot be killed" trumps all other considerations.

In your example, neither Tyrion nor Timett would die for claim, despite being chosen. And no, the loser of the challenge would not need to "go backwards" and choose another character that can die for claim. The time for choosing targets is over.

Uncle Joker said:

Actually, Valar is not the same because it doesn't choose anything to die to die when it initiates. There is no way to say that Timett, specifically, was targeted for death because Valar is an untargeted, general kill effect.

Uncle Joker said:

That example, again, is completely different. Blood of the Dragon says that the character gains the Dragon trait while it is attacking. Dany says that Dragon characters do not kneel to attack. A character must kneel when it is declared in order to become an attacker. So the character with Blood of the Dragon does not gain the Dragon trait (and therefore become eligible for Dany's ability) until after it is already attacking. You don't get to go backwards and stand it, saying it is "retroactively" eligible for Dany's ability.

Look at it this way: Dany is on the board. You attack with a Maester, kneeling him. Then, you use the Bronze Link on that Maester to return Rhaegar's Harp to your hand. Then you use the Pale Steel Link on that same Maester to attach the Harp to him. He is now a Dragon, right? So does he stand since he is attacking and Dany is in play because he never should have knelt in the first place? But if he never should have knelt, he shouldn't have been able to use those links to become a dragon! Dany cannot apply retroactively to something that has already happened (kneeling to become an attacker).

But the Tyrion/Timett/Valar example is completely different. You are not applying "cannot be killed" retroactively to Valar's initiation; you are applying it for the first time when you move ahead to Valar's resolution.

ktom said:

OK, One more question.

Let's say if Timett has the rule text of Standing Clansman can not be killed, instead.

VALAR.

If Timett kneel to save Tyrion, will Timett be killed at VALAR Resolving step?

Uncle Joker said:

Yes. For the exact same reason.

"Cannot be killed" protects from two separate things: being chosen as a target during the initiation of a kill effect (not a factor in your "standing clansmen" example since Valar does not target anything) and from the actual death during the resolution of a kill effect (targeted or general). Since CBK is checked at resolution for a general kill, if Timett loses it between initiation and resolution of such an effect, the resolution kills him.

ktom said:

So the key issue we are talking about is whether Valar target anything or not.

What I understand is,

1/ Valar initiated, every player check on every character if they are legal to die or not. Group A: Normal ones; Group B: CBK.

2/ Save/Cancel, every player take their tries to save Group A, or cancel the KILL.

3/ Resolving, Kill all the characters in Group A but not successfully saved/Cancelled. We don't go back to Initiated Step now, since Group B is confirmed safe in Step 1.

I can understand your opinion as Valar target nothing so nothing will be done in Step 1. Well.OK….

Another question, Maester Wendymer can save 2 characters including himself in a VALAR phase if the player has 2 influence to stand him.

Since it need to determine which character will be saved first, can the opponent player(first player) determine Maester Wendymer will save another House Geryjoy character first, so that Maester Wendymer can not save himself?

Uncle Joker said:

Uncle Joker said:

Uncle Joker said:

Uncle Joker said:

For example, if Timett is standing in #1, and therefore a legal choice for a targeted kill like military claim, he can be chosen as a target for the kill. If he kneels in #2, becoming CBK, he just doesn't die in #3, whether he was saved in #2 or not, because - targeted or not - if a character is CBK, he literally "cannot be killed" when the effect resolves.

Uncle Joker said:

Look at it this way; you are not the First Player. You have 2 Greyjoy characters, a copy of Iron Mines on the Table and a copy of Risen from the Sea in your hand. Valar is revealed. Does the First Player get to choose which character you save with Iron Mines and which you save with Risen (thereby choosing which character gets the +1 STR attachment)? No. Of course not. Or what if you decide NOT to save one of the characters with Iron Mines - can the First Player force you to do it anyway? No. Of course not. That is because the First Player never gets to tell another player what to do when triggering their own effects. Saves are triggered effects, so the First Player has no say in what you do.

Here is a scenario I envision Uncle Joker trying to get at.

Pretending Timmett Son of Timmet's ability is "Standing Clansman can't be killed".

Let's pretend that you have Timmett Son of Timmett and Tyrion Lannister(LotR) as your only remaining characters.

You are attacked and lost a 2 claim MIL challenge.

Timmett cannot be killed because he is standing, so he cannot be targeted for MIL claim.

Tyrion is targeted, but is saved by kneeling Timmett.

Timmett could not be targeted by the claim effect on initiating claim resolution, so he cannot be chosen as the second character to die for claim, so Tyrion is the only character that can be killed by losing this MIL challenge. Even though upon resolving the claim effect, Timmett is now eligible to be killed, he could not be targeted upon initiating claim effect resolution and thus will not be killed.

Maybe his question is more directed at this type of scenario?

Bomb said:

But, as discussed already, since the word "cannot" is absolute, and CBK is checked separately at both initiation and resolution (for different things), Timett survives the Valar (by kneeling) despite not being saved.

Thank you Ktom.