Nfxon said:

And for that, blame can be attributed to the developers. Can't exactly play an archetype that's barely supported, now can we?

Also, Rare Alex = The suck. No seriously. Even with all the support he got, he's a bad choice. NOW, say if one of the ShadoWar characters inherited his gimmick... maybe that'd be different.

i found quite an interesting combo charicture recently thanks to a freind its promo kyo using billys stuff for life loss and readying him its quite easy to pull off a string of high costing attacks

i dont think aggro is dead i just think that like most things in life you just got to hope for a bit of luck but that is what makes it so much fun to play as you are always on the ege of youre seat hoping to check that five.

MegaGeese said:

i meant life gain makes people one shot. rejection makes people play hand stripping.

While people are on the topic of what's holding Aggro back and how to fix that, I'd just like to say that these "solutions," whatever they may be, must benefit Aggro only .

When I was an active player, one of my favourite "tricks" when building a new deck was to take a card with a certain reputation, like (I hate myself for over-using this example) "oh, people only play Promo Yun-Seong for speed mills or hyper aggro," and turn it on its head. That aforementioned "reputation" was all that I heard at Worlds about YS... everyone would ask me whether my YS was one type or the other and I couldn't answer them. I made a super-heavy Control YS deck that happened to reliably T3 many opponents. Admittedly, my final YS deck was not built upon the premise of defying a stereotype, but my next point is still valid. If a card were designed/released with the intention of being an excellent Aggro card, then the developers must ensure that this card cannot be more useful (read: abuse) to the Control archetype (IMO).

Absurd Strength and Concealed Shallow Swipe are also useful examples. AS could and still can allow players to play only a few if not just one set of attacks and still reliably beat most/all opponents. Instead of using deck space for a set of attacks, a Control deck could utilize that space for a set of a card that would recur AS, thus ultimately raising consistancy (better control checks at the least) and reducing luck. CSS became the kill card for Control at one event because it presented a very streamlined kill condition. Both cards were probably intended for the Aggro archetype, but they help(ed) enable Control way too much. I'm on the fence about Feline Spike: it certainly enables Control, but it also gives Aggro an opening.

With the case of Feline Spike, perhaps we should "assign blame" to Control's power level and flexibility as opposed to Aggro's "lack of options." Controlling cards need greater penalties for their effects than "E/F/R Commit:" or some restriction(s) as opposed to none (see: Chinese Boxing). I liked Power of the Edge because it was well-costed: in its time, its two momentum cost was not as "automatic" for its symbols as it may be today. Then perhaps costing Control cards with momentum in today's environment is no longer enough. Furthermore, I find that raising the momentum cost on Control cards is NOT a valid solution because that would be admitting to a problem and side-stepping a definitive solution by creating a potentially worse problem (i.e., over-costed cards blow , a lot).

I'd like to see some new mechanics, not necessarily keywords, that highly deter Control decks from abusing cards that are designed to help the Aggro archetype; however, I do not want to see absurdly costed, restricted, or penalizing abilities. I'd also like to see less cards, namely foundations, that can potentially benefit the Control archetype. Having said all that, I feel that the latest set did a few things right and a few things wrong. I do not like seeing an environment where players must no longer play blocks in order to block an attack or make opposing attacks deal no damage if blocked, but I do like the style imparted on the new attacks.

All in all, I ended up discussing very little of my initial intentions... I guess the rest of the forums will have to wait now.

As always, I agree with Archimedes' above statements, and as in most cases, with ctr2yellowbirds' as well.

It seems like everyone agrees that GRAY CARDS > ORANGE CARDS, and so we have a few viable options:

AGGRO - hit fast and hard. Runs 6 to 12 attacks. Kills turn 2 to 3. Side note: Last night's (6-man) tournament was won by a Felicia deck running spike. Yes, it also ran Seal of Cessation, etc. But it looped Spike two or three times and killed fast. (As far as I know it hasn't change much since AsianUFSNoob used in Desert Wars.)

CONTROL - Keep the opponent from doing almost anything they want to. Almost synonymous with NPE, because when it works, the opponent feels like they're not even playing the game. Then, when you can, win the game (and keep them from doing anything to stop you). Runs 4-12 attacks. Kills turn 3 to 5, usually in 2-3 hits.

HYBRID - Mix the above, to taste.

COMBO - Really a subtype of either aggro or control, but relies on a few specific card interactions. How fast it kills depends in part on luck, and in part on the reliability and complication of the combo. Runs 4-12 attacks.

MILL - This was only viable for a while, but really, it's also a subtype of aggro or control. You either mill fast enough to kill, or you set up enough lockdown pieces that you can mill at your leisure. The control variant was dominant. Stands out because it can run 0-6 attacks.

People continue talking about them as if these are the only deck types that ever existed or ever could exist, which is sad. I hear people say, "You have to give aggro the tools it needs for the Turn 1 or Turn 2 win, or else control will dominate, because by Turn 3 they've go you locked down." Like it's one or the other.

We're forgetting about some of the deck types that exist, but have never been taking seriously.

MID-LEVEL BEATS - The fabled, "hit them a few times a turn for several turns until they keel." Presumably runs more that 12 attacks. Theoretically would kill turns 4-6.

POKE STRING - Presumably the imagined archetype for use by 7- and 8-handsizers (apparently designers forgot they can use big attacks, too). The idea is to fill your hand over a few turns with cheap, low-damage attacks, then throw them all out in one turn (and hopefully do something similar the next turn). Use foundations, etc. to boost damage for as many as possible. Presumably runs 16 attacks minimum. Theoretically would kill turns 4-6.

ANY DECK THAT RUNS 20+ ATTACKS (this could be a variant of Aggro, Mid-level, or Poke-string).

Obviously, these deck types aren't viable, but that doesn't mean they'll _never_ be viable. They'll simply never be viable as long as 1) there are cheaper, faster, more efficient (single-card) ways to do the same amount of damage, such as Feline Spike, 2) there are cheap, fast, efficient ways (CCHax) to make playing even a single attack in a string difficult, and 3) there are cheap, fast, efficient ways to prevent a player from ever really getting damage boosts off (wall of negation).

I am saying the power level of attacks needs to come _down_, and the power level of foundations needs to come down _even further_. I'm okay with the existence of control (though arguments could be made that it doesn't fit in a fighting game-themed CCG), but every form of control is too cheap right now. Momentum gen is also too cheap right now, which is what allows single-card game-winners to function. And recursion is still far too cheap (even with Military Rank gone). Every recursion piece, whether from discard, momentum, deck, or RFG, should be at least as pricey as Giradot's Leadership, and at least is tricky as You Must Defeat Shen Long..., because RECURSION > TUTOR. Why dig through your deck, when you can play a few cards and see what you need smiling at you from your discard pile. It's stupid.

The real problem is that none of these problems can be fixed without a complete reset. FFG would need to start a standard block where the previous year's worth of cards are NOT legal, because no one will play new cards when older, over-powered cards are still in the pool.

I worry that Set 12 will fail for that reason. I don't see how they can make balanced cards that focus on the game's core mechanics, when so many cards with 4-point shuriken watermarks (especially promos) make avoiding the game's core mechanics the right choice.

This discussion, at its simpliest level, boils down to this.

Any given deck, be it aggro or control or whatever, will win not based on its archetype but on its ability to play cards when it needs to and pass checks for thoes cards. Control decks "win condition cards" have 5-6 control checks and 1-3 difficulty. Aggro deck win cards currently have 5-6 difficulty and 2-3 control check. At that point its pretty much just a math problem.

Additonally and unfortunatley cards that support aggro and nothing else are far and few between. Take for instance You Can't Escape, an action card that rewards the play of multiples or like zone attacks. I can't see how this card would really be much benefit to a control deck because control decks dont string attacks in large enough groups for the bonus to be worth it, but even with its exceptional 0 difficutly, its 4 control check is still too low for a deck that needs to pass 6+ checks to string attacks, and now you have a card thats taking a foundation slot, a foundation that could probably give a comprable damage bonus AND be used to pass checks.

Considering the requirements to play this card that arent written on the card (really you need 3+ like zone attacks in the card pool for it to do anything worth playing and you need to clog the pool to play it) this card in retrospect should probably have a 6 check. Its pretty much the same with all Pro aggro cards.

Honestly in retrospect there needed to be a lot more 4+ check attacks and there needed to be alot less 5 and 6 check foudnations. Cards like Lord of the Makai could have a 3 control and still see play, and cards like loving devotion and such should see play if only because there check is so rare. Most cards in the game should have floated around the 3-4 CC range, with very few cards getting into the higher areas and having very lack luster abilities if any at all in exchange for what they do.

I personally love Aggro decks, not only because I like throwing attacks that make my opponent say "Holy S#@$! That hurts.", but because I have more fun trying to figure out how to hit my opponent with those attacks.

The problem that I keep running into is that the symbols that are typically used for aggro usually don't have an answer for everything like control does. Usually in a control deck you run into cards that can cancel abilities, and if they can't cancel it, they will destroy it, and if they can't destroy it, they will commit it, etc.

Aggro is just attack, attack, attack, before your opponent can do the same to you, or get setup quickly enough to control you. Both situations are difficult most of the time. With control decks, all they have to do is prevent you from taking them to zero vitality, and they can setup their win condition. That's all they really have to concern themselves with.

There are some crazy aggro decks out there tho, like a recent Adon deck that killed me on turn two, twice, but for the most part, control will win. That's just the way it is. But, with that being said, I know of an Adon deck that needs to meet my first-turn kill Ryu deck .

Have fun,

Jim

ARMed_PIrate said:

Thing is, my question was not : "Will Aggro be viable?" ('cause what you just said pretty much boils down to aggro, albeit slightly bit slower), but "Is Aggro still dead?" Your answer (and everyone else in the thread's as well) pretty much cemented that as fact.

Oh well, back to designing a deck I'm not gonna like to play.

So i guess someone just needs 2 figure out a deck that still is viable in an aggro state.....any ideas?

Da_ghetto_gamer said:

The Adon deck mentioned before would definitely be THE aggro deck of the season. Except I'm missing 4 cards of great importance to actually build it : 4 Lord of the Makais. Due to the sheer importance of this card, any deck that relies on Momentum and does NOT have it (as much as Knee Gatling is awesome, it requires start-up momentum to properly build, ergo it's kind of bad on that point) is screwed from the start, making the Adon deck a pretty bad choice to test it out if you just so happen to be on a budget. Funnily enough, there's like at the very least 20-25 LotMs in the Montreal meta, none of them be mine.

I was toying with the idea of a Billard Player using Remy's foundations to have Air do some huge damage/speed, but that fell through BADLY. A Victor Chaos/Death hybrid might be able to do something good with these shenanigans (with Reanimated) but... yeah. I'm not seeing this go any sort of far.

Strangely enough, I might actually be stuck building that Hugo aggro deck we were toying with. Tsurane Kiri, Mega Spike, Monster Lariat and probably Ichi no Tachi for a build. Have your opponent start, toss Mega Spike, discard a card, build. Second turn, hope you have Tsurane Kiri and go for the kill. Possible All or Earth splash for Tag Along (in case you have no attacks in hand, and want start killing ASAP). If Tsurane Kiri does not strike your fancy, maybe Gigas Breaker might, but that's +1 difficulty for not very much of an effect. Rest of Hugo's stuff can be put to use in order to draw more cards and play more attacks. If really needed, tri-symbol it, add Ready for Anything for extra damage buffs and draw power (which will come from the fact that you play a foundation first in your card pool). Not very susceptible to BP (due to highest difficulty being a 5) too. The problem is finding a way to prevent Rejection/DamNerf that is not named No Memories or Distractible.

Rare Alex, I have deemed bad, but someone with way more patience than I have would likely get somewhere with him. Bad draws happen 90% of the time, however, and with barely any acceleration worth mentioning (especially since control players WILL accelerate more than you)... yeah. Maybe a Fire/Water hybrid to have access to Aquakinesis AND Ready for Anything as far as draw power is concerned, but beyond that, I'm not convinced he'll be any sort of good.

6 Check Felicia is a monster as was proven as early as last year's ECC, since that thing can FTK far more frequently than anyone should be comfortable with. So long as 6 checks exist (and believe you me Felicia is one of those characters that can easily cheese them by having 8 possible different character cards to stack on herself - 4 of Felicia2, 4 of Felicia3), Felicia will likely be the gamble deck of the season, especially with the Injuries banned.

Would any of those have a chance against a well built control deck though? Hell no.

Felicia Spike builds are cute, but too many staples hose it completley. Tag Along ruins the FTK aspect of it, its very vulnerable to hax, but most of all it loses to itself a lot of the time. Most tourney decks, such as most order/control builds or water loop decks or what have you, dont run 1 checks and often times dont run less than a 3 and dont suffer this fault. Add to the fact that most tourney caliber order builds are totally equipped to hose Felicia FTK without going out of the cards they already pack.

While it probably the most viable aggro type in block 3 its also not a good choice for a tourney deck because of the risk of it failing itself. If felica sees any more large multiples she can play later on with 3+ checks rest assured she will inprove vastly.

Protoaddict said:

Hence why I referred to it as a gamble deck. Pick a card, any card, you pick right, I kill you, you pick wrong, you kill me.

another problem for agro is the fact that there are quite a few decks that can kill turn 2-3, and run less than 8 atacks. i don't consider these decks agro, just extremely fast control.

trane said:

Hanzo comes to mind for that although I was expecting him to do better at the GCC then he did .

Um...trane....a deck that beats you on turn two would probaly, or rather will be considered aggro. Chances are if they are able to recur or pull out quick foundations . None the less, it still counts as aggro b/c to the extent of how quickly they were able to make you eat that nasty multiple.

Mt_Do said:

He might have been talking about something like hanzo kick which some including myself dont consider aggro .

Going back to Adon4: Yes, I am running Lord of the Makai. I didn't shell out £30 (for three of them) not to.

My typical turn 1 consists of something like Chinese Boxing* (3), Natural Leader (4), Lord of the Makai (4), Iga Legacy (5), risk a Stained Honor (5) and that's possiby 5 foundations should I succeed. With a high amount of 6CCs and about 15 attacks, it's not too hard.
Then on Turn 2, I proceed to RAWR SMASH with one small attack followed by Jaguar THOUSAAAAAND!!!

* - Yes, Chinese Boxing is considered a control card. But these days you need a tiny bit of control to stop them getting to you first. I like to call it "Counter-Control." Cards that are a good example of this are Program Malfunction, Olcadan's Mentoring, Trapped in a Nightmare, Inhuman Perception, and my personal favourite Psycho Style or Omni-directional Clusterbomb's action side. They can commit or stop annoying foundations that screw up your game plan, however, their stats (with the exception of ODCB and Chinese Boxing) don't slow your deck down at all.

However, the real light that showed me that aggro isn't dead is Alex4. I'll mention this for Viewtiful_Joe as it's his deck and he can only get to the net while at work, but he's recently built Alex off All/Fire with some amazing results. Typical kill turn for him is on about turn 3, where he uses Alex's R (without discarding cards from his card pool), plays a non-attack, then a cheap attack like Chop, E's with all his Ready for Anythings, American Made, and Chop itself for some ridiculous damage. Chop turns face down, so he continues with another attack.
With Bitter Rivals pushing damage through, each attack hits, including Dash Lows, more Chops, Kuzuryu Reppas to draw more attacks, etc, and Raw Talent to keep the pool clear. Eventually, with Alex's floating R in effect and Times Square discarding more cards from the card pool, the attacks just grow larger, and larger... Against my little brother's Hugo deck it got to the point where he threw 2 Boomerang Raids for well over 100 damage each!

Son Gopaul said:

That's how mine worked, except I was NEVER able to actually do this on T3.

Being the person running said Alex deck, I can agree that he is certainly a lot more powerful than he is given credit, but he is certainly not an easy character to run, and luck does factor into it somewhat, but then I do run a small level of control cards, such as Amy's Assistance, Chester's Backing and Blood Runs True. I think the key to aggro is to actually allow them to slap down all of their fast control building while sniping out cards that could affect YOU directly, through means such as BRT, Chesters Backing, Yoga Adept and Olcadan's Mentoring.

With any aggressive build, you need to find one thing that it is very good at and focus entirely on that while picking off the things that can stop that one thing. I'll use an imagery of pushing through a large crowd to get to someone on the other side. The barrier is there, but they'll soon move out of the way when you're flailing your arms either side of you to push them away, much like Olcadan's and BRT can do to cards that stop you. I built Alex for an entirely different reason to the fact that I think he's a powerful character, but upon playing him, I've found that he is extraordinary in a way that works. The thing you need to be doing is baiting cards out. The way I do this is by forcing my opponent to try to negate Alex through Tag Along, Inhuman Perception, or something similar, alllowing my American Made's, Times Square and Dash Low's to deal the raw level of damage that he would have given before, as this way, the control deck will have to negate EVERYTHING in order to stop you, which is more difficult than you might think. I also run a slightly larger number of attacks in my deck as I've found that it is a counter to BRT in itself. I'm sure that Alex, and any other aggro deck have their weaknesses, but then, doesn't every deck?

Aggro isn't dead; it's just not as brainless as Chain Throw/Absurd/Absurd/KFT anymore. I know for a fact that Chaos and Order, perhaps even Void, can aggro because they also have their tools to deal with control.

Evil lost its aggro potential when Absurd and Chain Throw went away. Fire needs some love, though. Let's hope for some loving in the future.

guitalex2008 said:

Pretty much every symbol not named Air, Chaos or Order needs some measure of love. An argument could be made for Earth and Water.

Anyone remember life? It currently has a handful of cards that really look like they could be a SUPER stong backbone for aggro, but they are missing pieces which prevent it from all comming together.

Life has:

Admiration
Adoration
Annu Mutsube
Battle Prowess
Distractable
Fei Long's Foward Kick
Forethough
Heidern's Assassination arts
Kung Fu Training
Kyokugen Karate
Maternal Instincts
Naruto
Natures Force
Purpose
Rejection
Revenant's Calling
Searching for a real Challenge
Sniping Arrow
Soichi Jinmu
Spirit of Athens
The Anti K
The Gorgeous Team
Tough Outer Shell
Will for the Fight
Yuri's Super Upper

Even with all these pieces life dosent seem to be able to make a splash. I theorize that if one solid kill card hit the game for like however were going to see it become the primer aggro symbol.

Protoaddict said:

i have been saying this for a long time.

Protoaddict said:

+Chaos Flare

Not to mention life has a solid backbone of characters. Yi-Shan, Sophitia, Naks, Mai, Ibuki, Yang, and more. Unfortunately, you hit the nail on the head. Life lacks in a solid kill condition with any sort of check that doesn't kill yourself to do it. It also lacks an answer to Olcadan's in the staging area.