Just a quick query on something that has been bugging me for a while, just had a rummage on the faq but couldnt find anything.

What is the timing for bringing a card out of shadows exactly?

I understand that at the start of each phase each player can bring 1 card out of shadows starting with the first player, if you pass on the option you have to wait until the next phase or use a shadows card ability to bring a card out via its own option and restrictions.

The real question iswhere is that first chance to bring a shadows card into play in the timing structure? Does it create a new framework event? Does it take place at the first available player action window?

The wording in the shadows rules says
"At the beginning of the any phase, a card that is in Shadows can come
out of Shadows and into play at the discretion of the player controlling
the card"

" This happens before any other "beginning of the phase" effects occur."


The any phase and beginning are what are confusing the issue for me and my group, as with some debated, but agreed, house ruling we have been playing them before the first framework event, which means that characters brought out at dominance count strength and a black cells triggered at the standing phase can keep a character knelt.

My gut says its wrong and that 'any phase' indicates player action window timing, 'beginning' however indicates pre framework from an easy to understand point of view.

I fully expect that i have missed something really obvious but while it hasn't broken any of our games the clarification is always welcome.

Underworld40k said:

- It is like a passive effect in that the opportunity to bring a card out of Shadows happens at the beginning of each phase whether you want it to or not. You still have the opportunity, even if you have no cards in Shadows (just like you still have the opportunity to assign Stealth, even if none of your attackers have the keyword). So "at the beginning of each phase, before anything else" really indicates that opportunity to bring cards out of Shadows happens in the "passive" step of each "begin phase" framework action window - with the stipulation that it happens before any other passive (the way that the plot phase has the stipulation that "when revealed" plots happen before any other "after you reveal a plot card" passive, like Golden Tooth Mines).

- But bringing cards out of Shadows is like a player action in that it completes the entire action cycle of "initiate-save/cancel-resolve-passive-reponse-end" before the next passive (or card coming out of Shadows) can take place. True passive effects, of course, only go through an "initiate-save/cancel-resolve" cycle.

So if you want to get really technical about the timing, bringing cards out of Shadows is an entirely unique mechanic. If it helps, think of them as "isolated passive effects." They are "passive effects" that initiate first in each "begin phase" framework action window, but they are "isolated" in that they create an exception to the "hold all Responses until Step 5" rule.

The end result, by the way, is exactly what you ended up with the way you were playing it - cards come out of Shadows, enter play, and have their Responses triggered before anything else each phase. That means before anyone counts gold in Marshaling, before dominance is counted and awarded in Dominance, before anything stands in Standing, and before gold is paid back to the treasury in Taxation.

It's probably best to think of it as distinct Framework Action Windows with one Framework Event that says "The First Player has the opportunity to bring one card out of Shadows" resp. "The player to the left of the First Player has the opportunity to bring one card out of Shadows" etc., right?

Ktom, as always your detailed analysis is excellent, really glad that we got it right as i had argued for it despite my gut instinct which is what had been nagging me.

Ratatoskr said:

Underworld40k said:

Go FFG recycle!

ktom said:

All the more reason to update them, imo. Not to mention it would be the occasion to add a "Choose Titles" framework event in the plot phase after the "Reveal Plots" framework event.

FFG should really add the shadows phase to their Flowcharts in the 3.0v of rules, erratas and flowcharts download. The play group I play with has been going back and forth between whether or not it was at the beginning of the player actions stage or if it was before everything else since it states "at the beginning of the any phase" you do this.

Hmm… I've been reading and re-reading the conversation in this thread and something keeps bugging me.

Mainly, how can these both be true at the same time:

So if you want to get really technical about the timing, bringing cards out of Shadows is an entirely unique mechanic. If it helps, think of them as "isolated passive effects." They are "passive effects" that initiate first in each "begin phase" framework action window, but they are "isolated" in that they create an exception to the "hold all Responses until Step 5" rule.

AND

It's probably best to think of it as distinct Framework Action Windows with one Framework Event that says "The First Player has the opportunity to bring one card out of Shadows" resp. "The player to the left of the First Player has the opportunity to bring one card out of Shadows" etc., right?

So… what's bugging me here? The former sentence seems to indicate that this all happens WITHIN the Begin Phase Framework Action Window, and the second one seems to indicate that it all happens BEFORE the Begin Phase Framework Action.

I'm probably missing something here. But what?

WWDrakey said:

The other thing you are missing is that Rat's explanation of thinking of them as separate framework actions doesn't actually say anything about where those windows are. They cannot take place before the "begin phase" window because - well - then Shadows would be happening outside of the phase, making the few "until the end of the phase" Shadow Responses we have pretty useless. And they cannot take place after the "begin phase" window because the Shadow rules say that cards come out of Shadows before anything else happens in the phase - including passives and Responses to the phase beginning.

So, the Shadow actions have to take place within the "begin phase" framework window - as complete, insular actions with separate "Response" and "end" steps. There is really no need to try to reconcile Rat's explanation and mine since they are two different ways of looking at the same thing. However, if you want to reconcile them, then Rat should have probably said "If it helps, think of it as distinct framework action SUB-windows…" in order to illustrate the "window within window" timing that must be the case (as explained above).

ktom said:

I'll have to amend my own post from back then in one respect: Shadows can't happen in a Framework Action Window, because the player to the left of the player bringing a card out of Shadows has the first Response opportunity (like in a Player Action Window), not the First Player (as would be the case in a FAW).

My suggestion would be to view Shadows as a Player Action Window in which each player is allowed no more than one Action, and that Action cannot be anything else than bringing one card out of Shadows. As far as I can see, this would solve all the timing issues and ambiguities connected to Shadows.

Now, as ktom states, this leaves only the problem of *where* this window is. I always thought of it being part of each phase, but happening before the actual "begin of phase" FAW. Sure it's a bit awkward, but I don't see why it wouldn't work. Drakey's a theoretical phycisist (right?), I think he has seen stranger things.

The other option would be that the "Shadows" PAW interrupts the "Begin of Phase" FAW. It would occur between step 3 and 4 of the "Begin of Phase" FAW and resolve completely, including its own passives and responses, before the FAW resumes with its own passives and responses.

Since we already have precedence for an effect that interrupts a FAW to insert a PAW (Dragonstone Port!), I think I'm coming around to this way of thinking. This interpretation would also be in accord with the FAQ and the Shadows rules, which state that bringing cards out of Shadows occurs at the Beginning of the Phase.

So, what does everybody think? Can we think of Shadows as a Player Action Window with the mentioned limitations that interrupts the Begin of Phase Framework Action Window? Would that solve the Shadows timing issues?

Ratatoskr said:

More like computational phycisist - essentially meaning that instead of being smart enough to understand most of the theory, I used to develop computer codes that would solve them for me. But to strange things, I am no stranger, true. =)

Anyway, back on topic:

The reason I was asking about this is actually pretty much solved by Ratatoskr's idea of the Framework Action being *interrupted* by the Shadow Actions, instead of the shadow actions residing inside the Framework Action window. I was wondering about whether the latter would have allowed you to respond to cards coming out of shadows in the Response: window of the begin phase Framework Action.

Another solution would have been Fight Club -style: "What happens in shadows, stays in shadows." (Essentially, that the Shadow Actions and everything that happens within them would be invisible to the surrounding Framework Action.)

I have a feeling that the idea of there being a separate Framework Action Window, that's somehow part of the phase, but happening BEFORE the begin phase framework event wouldn't work, since the only thing that *defines* a phase for us, are those very same begin and end framework events.

Okay, staying with Rat's idea of the framework being interrupted by the opportunity to bring out shadows… How does Young Griff work? My interpretation is that instead of creating a second opportunity to bring a card out of shadows (and placing it where? as a nestled action window inside Young Griff's action window? After it? In that case, before other player's opportunities or after?), he functions more like Meera or Guardian Wolf. The card is brought out of shadows by Young Griff's action, so the same interaction (or lack thereof) between Hidden Chambers, Guardian Wolf, Meera and City of Shadows Agenda would apply here.

However, I'm not completely sure of this… and would gladly have someone check my logic.

I think you're right. I don't know why the pertaining FAQ entry would not apply here:

Can I use Hidden Chambers (City of Secrets
F3) to reduce the cost of the triggered effect
on Meera Reed (Tourney for the Hand F2) that
brings her out of Shadows?

No. Hidden Chambers only reduces the
cost to bring cards out of Shadows during a
standard Shadows opportunity at the beginning
of each phase. It cannot be used to reduce the
cost of a triggered effect that brings a card out
of Shadows.

If we accept the hypothesis that Shadows is a limited Player Action Window, the second Shadows card would come out of Shadows during that window - but still not "during a standard Shadows opportunity" but rather by virtue of YG's triggered effect. The wording with "by paying the rest of its gold cost" is functionally the same as on Meera, Mandon, Jaquen or Guardian Wolf.

WWDrakey said:

WWDrakey said:

But neither will the gold penalty from City of Shadows, right?

Khudzlin said:

Yep, I think so. So… Griff The Younger is actually pretty useful with that.

Khudzlin said: