Hello all.

Before you reach for your blessed bolters, hear me out! And this kind of inquiry perhaps are not best answered here, but I trust in you, my fellow Deathwatchers and your knowledge, so here goes: I started to delve into possible answers to some questions I have had for a time, which is -

1. "Do The Emperor Really Protect - and if so, how?". What I mean is kind of game mechanically - how would it work, and also storywise how could one weave it into the actions of the player characters? I've read the Horus Heresy four initial books from Black Library and also read almost all the Gaunt's Ghosts books where a certain commissar gets a lot of faith blooming in his breast, sort of.

2. Many times you read about the heretics and Chaos Marines and such, hollering "Death to the false Emperor!". What do they mean? When looking around on the net for the answer to my first question (above), I came across another thread on this and one guys answer sounded interesting to me (quote below):

"Personally I believe there are two entities; The Emperor and the God-Emperor.

The Emperor is the physical remains of the great warlord who conquered the galaxy, and by his sheer force of will and psychic might is powering the Astronomican and keeping the Imperial Webway gate sealed.

The God-Emperor on the other hand is a god. A warp entity formed by the untold trillions of humans who worship it. It is a ruthless and tyrannical god, and is so because that is the environment from which it was born. The Ecclesiarchy dictate and regulate the Imperial Cult and thus the worship of Trillions across the galaxy, thus the God-Emperor acts just how the Ecclesiarchy wants it to act. It is this entity, the God-Emperor, who 'rewards' and 'protects' some of its followers via divine intervention, (the Imperial Saints for example), not the smouldering corpse upon the Golden Throne.

The two may or may not be linked..."

Here's the link to that thread: http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23610&page=2

3. If there exists two Emperors, one physical almost undead thing sitting on the Golden Throne, and another warp-dwelling God-Emperor, does that mean to the Chaos worshipers and/or atleast the Chaos Marines he is the real Emperor, so that could be the reason of the phrase "Death to the false Emperor!"?

See next post, problems with quoting here

dracopticon said:

1. Well, the Sisters of Battle get access to certain powers based on their Faith. That's one hell of a way right there.

2. Pretty sure it's more along the lines of "your worship of your Emperor as a god-figure is misguided because the only true powers in the universe are the Ruinous Powers, not some husk of a psyker," except that's a bit of a mouthful when you're charging headlong at your foes. Makes for a rather poor bumper sticker as well.

3. See above. Full-blown Chaos Marines generally don't care about a fine-line heresy like this. They've got their own gods to worry about, especially if they're dedicated to one in particular. You're more likely to see this in a renegade or heretic cult rather than a full-blown blasphemous cult. In fact, given the nature of individual Chapters to deviate from Ecclesiarchy dogma, there are probably one or two Loyalist Chapters that adhere to this notion.

dracopticon said:

1. Fate Points.
2. Righteous Fury
3. *SPOILERS* Read "The Emperor Protects" Deatwatch mission trilogy, final mission, for conclusive proof that the Emperor protects. This mechanism is actually one of the high point of FFG mission-writing craftsmanship.

dracopticon said:

Do not believe in the whispers of heretics.

Seriously how much the Emperor is divine or not depends on your interpretation. Do you want a more hard science.fiction approach of the far future? In that case the Emperor is no god and the babble of machine spirits is stupid superstition by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Do you want a more fantastic setting (as I do)? In that case the Emperor is a mortal yet god-like figure who isn't omniscient nor omnipotent but who somehow can send out visions or simply manipulate fate/luck to further the cause of his followers. In that case machines are in fact do possess a spirit of their own which does truly needs to be placated by the ceremonies of the Tech-Priests and -Marines. And the Astartes, the Angels of Death, in that case are also the mythical angelic figures of the imperium who keep order on behalf of Him On His Golden Throne.

As for the Traitor Marines, they obviously would have preferred it if their leader Horus had killed the Emperor and had taken his place. But they'll get what they deserve for their treachery.

dracopticon said:

Nope it has to do with the Primarch Horus rebelling against the one on Terra. The followers of Chaos are all traitors who have sworn allegiance to the evil gods of Chaos and as such they are antagonists to the cause of the Emperor (who gets revered by most imperial citizens as a God but by most marines only as a gene-father).

Their only reward will be extermination though. For the Emperor!

Alex

Remember that the Emperor is effectively a gestalt of early humanity's quasi-psychic shamans and wise men. He's definitely more than a mortal man even if he could be injured and killed.

Also AK, heretics and Xenos have both Fate and RF, lending me to believe they're more fundamental forces than a blessing of the Emperor, the Ruinous Powers, any one race's gods, etc. You are absolutely right about TEP though. As to Faith Talents, it is indeed either the Emperor's intercession or a whole new type of psychic effect that can be learned and doesn't interact with the Warp.

I think it was a Jaq Draco book where the Inquisitor actually goes and talks to the Emperor, haven't read the full thing but you can find bits of it all over online. It pretty clearly says the Emperor can and does interfere, steer, etc., humanity. Whether or not this is divine , I think, as Alex says, is up to the setting you're going for. Just because the Cult of the Emperor says he's a god doesn't mean he is. And just because most Space Marines say he is not a god doesn't mean he isn't.

As for RF, the book really describes it as the blessing of the emperor. Mechanically, you let bad guys have it in order to make them tougher. That said, you can interpret it as luck veiled in belief. Walking under a ladder or breaking a mirror is not the reason you got that flat tire, but it doesn't stop people from thinking that was the cause.

As the Beati says, "There are no miracles. There are only men."

Charmander said:

That's mixing fluff and crunch. What's the fluff reason for xenos and heretics to have a blessing as potent as that of the Emperor's? The will of the hive mind or the gestalt effect of the Ethereals' weird control power perhaps? The Eldar are a broken people but I bet Exarchs and Farseers still have FP despite their gods being dead, captured, shattered, or insane. I don't even know that the DEldar have a god-figure but presumably some of them have FP.

Kshatriya said:

Half the game mixes fluff and crunch. Intersting though that RF is described differently in DW, just checked, and leaves out the Faith overtones- I was misquoting from DH apparently.

Anyhow, the trait 'touched by the fates' says you're well, 'touched by the fates' whatever those fates happen to be . Whatever web of fate that you use for power gives you super powers for a time. Fluffwise, it isn't too tough to come up with various reasons to enable NPC enemies to have fate smiling on them for that lucky shot.

I agree though, that RF is a 'mechanical' aspect of the world, luck if you will, or precision. But that's just the theme I have in my game though. RF is automatically confirmed against xenos by DW marines not because they're particularly blessed, but because they know what weak spots to target in xenos creatures- they know to shoot creature x in the eyes and creature y in the kneecaps. Man 'blames' their luck on their deity.

Charmander said:

It's almost a blend of both in my game. When the Apothecary took the heavy flamer to the Hive Tyrant and rolled 4 10s in a row for damage, I described the flame flowing and charring the beast and leaving the char of an Imperial aquila on its chest where the flame struck it. When the Librarian smote a lictor with his force sword and got a ton of RF damage, I had the afterimages of his Primarch holding his arm and guiding his blade.

But when my players fight Necrons, they will have to roll to reconfirm RF, because while the Emprah hates dem xenos, the KT literally has never seen them before and will have no idea how to fight them; the tactics to counter them and strike surely enough to autoconfirm Fury simply aren't covered by Deathwatch Training. Perhaps after fighting them a lot, they will be, but that may require an XP expenditure.

Andrew Tatro said:

1. Yep, I've heard as much that the Adepta Sororitas has some serious backup from the Emperor. You can apparently also draw that conclusion from some bonus rules in the table top 40K game. Some dude even suggested, on another forum, that the Emperor has a soft spot for women of the Imperium, more so then men (even Astartes), hence the greater backup.

2. Ok, so that would rule out the possibility of a warp-based God-Emperor.

3. Wow. I wonder who these chapter would be?

ak-73 said:

1. Fate Points.
2. Righteous Fury
3. *SPOILERS* Read "The Emperor Protects" Deatwatch mission trilogy, final mission, for conclusive proof that the Emperor protects. This mechanism is actually one of the high point of FFG mission-writing craftsmanship.

Seriously how much the Emperor is divine or not depends on your interpretation. Do you want a more hard science.fiction approach of the far future? In that case the Emperor is no god and the babble of machine spirits is stupid superstition by the Adeptus Mechanicus. Do you want a more fantastic setting (as I do)? In that case the Emperor is a mortal yet god-like figure who isn't omniscient nor omnipotent but who somehow can send out visions or simply manipulate fate/luck to further the cause of his followers. In that case machines are in fact do possess a spirit of their own which does truly needs to be placated by the ceremonies of the Tech-Priests and -Marines. And the Astartes, the Angels of Death, in that case are also the mythical angelic figures of the imperium who keep order on behalf of Him On His Golden Throne.

I think I'll go with the more fantastic version (as you've chosen to do), as it gives so much more depth to the whole backdrop, and creates uncertainty-factors for the otherwise very confident Astartes. I'd go so far as to say I actually want a kind of nihilistic setting, like the true situation in Call of Cthulhu canon setting, not the pulp one. The Imperium is doomed in the long run, but stranger things has happened than miracles on a massive scale...

dracopticon said:

In all likelihood not any official Chapter. That leaves pretty much any homemade Chapter you like. It would make great fluff for an Imp Guard v Marines tabletop battle.

Kshatriya said:

Very interesting ideas! That the faith would be unprepared for new and unknown threats is very refreshing! Good thinking! Unfortunately (or fortunately for me as I don't want more 'slews in the pot') I erased the Necrons in my version of the middle TEP scenario.

While I go for the fantasy verison too, I like to maintain a certain amount of ambiguity. While they were evacuating Avalos in OE, I set-up the final rounds that they had to so survive so that the Guard vendettas, etc were unable to locate their air field because they were forced to fly low. So the stormtrooper was asking for directions, some landmark or anything. 2 rounds later a ray of light broke through the red cloud cover and cast its rays on the remains of a metal crown on the remains of a giant statue of a saint or whatever (wasn't recognizable anymore due to the civil war fighting).

Was this divine intervention or a just a freak coincidence? Who knows? This ambiguity is part of the fun. But for the most part my players have accepted divine intervention as fact (both the PCs and the players). Still it's not entirely clear.

Alex

Not to cross franchises, but I often like to think of the Emperor as a Gao'uld (Stargate) sort of being. By this, I mean you have to define what is necessary to qualify as divine. The Gao'uld have technology that is leaps and bounds ahead of that held by many of their neighbors, and with it, they can extend life (healing devices, sarcophagi, and larval symbiotes), grant seemingly perfect health (same ways), or even resurrect the recently dead (sarcophagus again). They can loose bolts of "magic" from their hands (kara kesh/ribbon device), and teleport around (ring transport or pilfered Asgard beam tech), and deflect various enemy attacks (ribbon device's force field). With their mighty ships, they can kidnap whole cultures, or decimate them from space, seemingly with only their will. In all of these ways, "simpletons" can be easily swayed into believing that they are actually gods (they can create life and death, grant great boons, and they can live forever. The y can start, or end, whole civilizations). Add in that choosing not to believe is grounds for death, and not only might they have a compelling argument, but the alternative is unpleasant, and having gods isn't so bad a plan. With so many of the Imperium's resident worlds being tech-primitive, these people could be prime candidates for such belief-guiding. On the higher-tech worlds, the belief was already there, and has been ingrained in. It's also still grounds for death to choose not to believe.

As for the Emperor, himself, he is/was a powerful being, possessant of numerous, mighty, and far-reaching powers. He had access to much psychic might, technological knowledge, and such. With these things, he could easily be viewed as a god by the ignorant, and even the learned could view him as possessing the traits one often assumes a deity is to have. His lifespan was ridiculous, by any standards Humans choose to use. Of course, if you asked HIM, he would answer simply with "NO, I am NOT a god, in any way, and I FORBID you to think it, believe it, or preach it." The Emperor is a god, in that many people have faith and a belief that he is, and in the 40K universe, that belief translates to an effect in the Warp, one that I assume is similar to the power gained by the Ruinous Powers from their myriad servants. When he perished, he ascended to the Golden Throne, seemingly ascending into the Warp, to do battle with our foes, and to light the Astronomicon for His people. The Ecclesiarchy willingly used this to rally the people behind them, in order to maintain the stability of the Imperium after his death. If he was able, he would likely roast most of the Ecclesiarchs, as he forbade worship of him (kind of what caused the Horus Heresy to begin with, with slapping Lorgar across the face). He likely hates what Mankind has become, when he strove for a more enlightened, secular state, but one that the Ecclesiarchy didn't feel could survive his death.

So, is the GEoM a god? No. Do trillions of people believe he is a god? Yes. Does this, in many ways, make him a god? Yes. Is he the same person as the Emperor was? Yes. Does the Emperor view himself as a god? No. Does he wish to be viewed as such? No.

As for "The False God", I think most of that stems from Lorgar, and the Ruinous Powers. Lorgar wanted to worship his father as a true god, and to have others do the same. When the Emperor discovered this, he called the entire Chapter to heel, and publicly chastised Lorgar for his folly, claiming that he was no god, and forbade anyone to worship him as such. Humiliated and enraged, this left the Word Bearer Primarch as easy pickings for the Ruinous Powers; beings who DID view themselves as gods, worthy of his devotion, and certainly sought more worshipers. Lorgar and his Chapter fell to Chaos, and eventually made Horus do the same, and then half of the Legions Astartes were owned by Chaos, and the Horus Heresy began. In this, the Chaos Marines say "Death to the False God", both because they serve the Ruinous Powers, beings who claim to be the only gods, having toppled the petty deities of the Eldar, and other such races, and because they (the CSMs) remember, or were taught, of how the Emperor, himself, decreed he was not a god, and thus the trillions of worshipers comprising the Imperium are sinning, and wrong, for their Master is no God, by His own account.

venkelos said:

While based on the theory of Imperial Truth this is what the Emperor would say, but it's a little late for it now. He invented Imperial Truth as a means to weaken the Chaos Gods, the denying of gods and movement to scientific thought. At this point the Ecclesiarchy is one of the only things powering the Emperor in his not quite dead not quite alive state, and I'd wager he would be okay with that, because it's heavily implied that he fears that without his guidance and presence the universe would collapse, Chaos would win, and mankind would die.

Regarding the false emperor comments, I think we're overthinking it. I think they shout death to the false emperor as a way of saying 'your dad is crappy' or that 'your emperor is not the ruler of mankind'

@Alex, I totally agree, when you're in a fantastical setting like this, the mystery is a ton of fun. I liken it to some of the Ghost's novels, where you go from 'oh, it's divine' to 'oh no that's just a psychic power' to 'well now I don't know, that's awfully coincidental...'

Another way "The Emperor Protects": daemons are repelled by Aquillas (the Emperor's symbol) the way vampires are repelled by crosses...

Another Reason for the "False Emperor" comment.

When the Emperor was still trying to spread the Imperial Truth, Lorgar was spreading the belief in the god emperor, so the Emperor chided and punished him. This lead to Lorgar deciding that the Emperor was unworthy of both worship, and leadership. Thus as the fist of all traitors felt that the Emperor was unworthy, he was leading falsely, and so all other traitors who followed were screaming for the death of the false emperor.

I really love the fact that the entire history of 40k is nothing but tails of errors caused by hubris.

dracopticon said:

Afraid not. The Emperor was pretty much a practical misogynist. Sisters of Battle sure weren't his idea, his ideal warrior were the Space Marines. Why no female SMs? Because their physiology wouldn't allow for it, they weren't as efficient soldiers as men. Didn't have the musculature or, I guess, the plumbing for it.

The Emperor didn't want to be worshiped as a god, either. That's basically why the Heresy came about, the Word Bearers started the Imperial Cult and the Emperor told Lorgar, the Primarch of the Word Bearers, NO. I'm just an awesome dude, not a god. No worshiping. So the Word Bearers, desperate for some deity to worship (kind of like AA members), turned to Chaos gods.

Now, while the Emperor didn't want to be worshiped as a god, his abilities were near godlike... so much that his psychic beacon extends far out into the reaches of space, despite him being a decaying vegetable.

igotsmeakabob!! said:

The female DNA would reject the zygotes. This implies that it has been tried to create female Astartes and it just didn't work. So I can't agree with your assessment.

Alex

1) The Emperor Protects via: Fate Foints, the Emperors Tarot, The Astronomicon, The Binding Process etc. There are lots of examples of The Emperor doing his thing to help out mankind. It tends to be through agents like Saints and that sort of thing. He even may have managed to re-birth himself through Sebastian Thor at one point. And, depending on what you believe, he could even be Sigmar from Warhammer Fantasy....

2) The True Emperor in the eyes of the traitors was Horus. Thus, The God-Emperor is the False-Emperor in their eyes. They do not seem to have caught on to the fact that Horus is dead . As posted earlier, it could also be construed as a war cry in favour of the ruinous powers.

2.5/3) The God-Emperor, body and soul, is a single entity. Unimaginably powerful psychicly but crippled physically. Strange things may or may not happen if/when He dies.

The Ecclesiarchy et al. act in The Emperors name with very little actual guidance from The Emperor. He was, in fact, a secularist. The Imperial Cult was also pacifistic (at least with other humans) at its inception.

No, the foul traitors are most definately not crying war in favour of the warp presence of Our Most Beneficent Lord. One should not listen to the words of traitors young man. And if one must be in the presence of their utterings, think back to your Thoughts for the Day, "The dissident invites only retribution" .

ak-73 said:

Also, the Emperor made the Primarchs from himself (IIRC). He was a biological male despite his soul being a gestalt of ancient souls of both men and women. Makes sense that his quasi-clones (the Primarchs) would all be males (especially if the Emperor himself knew that to req-conquer Terra, you'd need warriors with exceptional upper-body strength and no offense to the ladies, but the male body is more designed for muscle mass increases than the female one), and that the Primarchs' genes, used to create the Astartes legions, would work best when combined with that of more males (possibly for much the same reason - during the Unification Wars, upper-body strength was the most important factor for warriors since they predominantly engaged in melee combat).

I'm just saying that the Emperor, as a guy, was a terrible person. He was the savior of mankind and the herald of its legacy in the stars, he was the force behind the pioneering of the technology that allowed for humanity to take its place as the most powerful Empire in the galaxy, he sired the Primarchs, and he was an *******. One of my favorite stories of him is, I think it was called The Last Church, in Tales of the Horus Heresy. Brilliant story. And really shows him for who he was supposed to be. A brilliant, courageous, and ruthless individual whose dream was to see Mankind as the sole ruler of the stars. He was Super Manifest Destiny Man, arguably with a little White Man's Burden thrown in on a galactic level.

I could be wrong about the practical misogyny.

igotsmeakabob!! said:

Note: The sisters of Battle did not come into being until thousands (I'm pretty sure, at least hundreds) of years after the battle of Terra. High Lord Vandire created them as his own personal bodyguard. Originally they were like many of the rest of the Imperium, convinced of the Emperor's divinity and forced to worship him. They did so by creating basically a space-nunnery with combat training and called themselves the Daughters of the Emperor. Following Vandire's death, the Ecclisiarchy was denied by law to maintain 'men at arms'. To circumvent this, they kept the Daughters of the Emperor as an army (they aren't men so the Ecclisiarchy isn't violating any laws).

As for the OP's original question about the False Emperor battle cry:

The traitor marine chapters renounced the Emperor during the Horus Heresy. They fell under Horus' sway and ambitions and started to believe Horus' delusions that he should be the "new" emperor and master of mankind. Thus, traitor marines believe Horus to be the "rightful" emperor and the real Emperor as false.

herichimo said:

Did not know this part!