Okay, im starting the planning phase of my campaign, but first i need to know somehting, full-auto, in the table it says that +20 to fire and each degree of sucsess is one extra hit (chunk salsa abounds), but in the written rules its +20 to hit and every 2 degrees of succsess is one extra hit ala semi automatic burst. So wich is it?

The errata clears this up (p. 2).

Every degree of success adds an extra hit.

The newest rules in Black Crusade offer an alternative to make full-auto less incredibly overpowered. They change the scheme for firing modes from (Single / Semi / Full) (+0 / +10 / +20) to (+10 / +0 / -10).

In some ways this makes sense. It's a lot harder to control a gun that's on full auto, but you do shoot more bullets. Personally, I feel that it's a better ruleset because we have to make a compromise between realism and balance and, in this case, it wasn't balanced.

Flail-Bot said:

The problem with this though, is that the +20 BS is to represent the higher chance of a shot hitting at all by sheer fact of throwing out more lead, than of an increase in accuracy.

Really what they should of done is make it full auto +20 BS, 1 shot per 2 DoS, and have Semi auto be +10, 1 shot per 1 DoS.

This would make it so that Semi auto is a bit less likely to hit, but more controllable if you do hit the target.

Switching to Black Crusade rules may not be the wisest idea for the GM here, alot of those are fairly different, and are built for a differently paced game.

Well, I wouldn't say all the BC rules. This one my group found appealing however. I agree that it's not perfect, +20 BS makes perfect sense, it's just hard to balance.

Well, having actually tried to shoot an assault rifle at single, semi and full auto, I can tell you that a full auto burst is NOT more likely to result in many hits than semi or seperately placed single shots.

We have switched to the BC rules and find them mpre balanced and in line with our expectations of "relistic behaviour" (FWIW).

Gamewise it prevents everyone and their mother from going all Full Auto all the time, as was natural with the DH rules. Now the various attacks are more appealing, and we get more interesting choices during combat.

The one rule I am NOT adopting, is the Called Shot Action (which was actually changed with Rogue Trader, but makes even less sense now )

Re BC rules - +10/+0/-10 is stupid - even if auto fire is hard (but not imposible) to control your first bullet is going to hit where you aim, as it would at single. And it is utter BS for weapons w/o recoil (Las and such).

IMO, rules should be something like:

SP/Bolt weapons (weapons with recoil):

Single shot - half action, base BS

Burst - two modes, half action/full action.

- half action represents real burst either property of weapon or control of FA (anyone with some training can fire 2-4 rounds bursts from FA weapons). +5% to hit at standard range, additional hit per DoS

- full action represents rapid firing, Roll to hit with each round, -5 if previous was miss, +5 if previous was hit. Not usable at longer then standard range.

Full Auto - full action. Additional hit per DoS. +5 to hit per 3 rounds fire at short range, +5 per 5 rounds fired at standard range.

Weapons w/o recoil (Las/plasma etc): 3

Single - half action, base BS

Burst - half/full action:

- half action, +5 to hit at any range, additional hit per DoS

- full action, again this is rapid fire - roll for each round, +10 if previous was hit, -5 if previous was miss.

Full auto, +10 to hit at any range.

Las weapons do have recoil in the 40K universe. They're not lasers as you think, and the fluff justification for the recoil is the explosion of super-heated air in front of the focusing lense. This is also what makes the distinctive whip-like *SNAP* sound they make when fired.

As for the first bullet hitting just as well, that might be true for certain modes of operating your weapon, but mostly these bursts are fired "from the hip" so to speak. It might seem counter-intuitive, but remember that these actions and their changes are mostly about game balance. And they do that quite well.

Darth Smeg said:

In some works they do, in some they don't. I go with they don't as that boost them slightly under my rules (and they need slight boost).

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As for the first bullet hitting just as well, that might be true for certain modes of operating your weapon, but mostly these bursts are fired "from the hip" so to speak. It might seem counter-intuitive, but remember that these actions and their changes are mostly about game balance. And they do that quite well.

Ever fired FA weapon? Firing from hip is not something enyone with even slight training will do - that falls under suppresive fire with it's -20 to hit.

You fire controlled bursts, burst length depending on weapon and situation (2-3 rounds on longer ranges - that is semi mode in DH, 5-6 rounds on shorter, 8-10 in emergency - room clearing with multiple close oppoents etc). BC rules don't make any sense for heavier weapons - with decent LMG (PKM) you can fire 5-10 rounds burts at 300m and have it all hit standard standing target.

Regarding the ballance I have played with my rules* and did not find then unbalanced at all - they actually promote semi mode and las weapons which were both underused under both BC and DH rules.

*Even if my games are combat light and most of my players do not want to acquire a lot of fancy weapons and most higher end weapons they have are trophies (from Spectre Cell 17 in Damned Cities) - my six rank 7 players have - bolt pistol (arbitrator), Angelus bolt carbine (shared), plasma pistol and Ironclaw shotgun (guardsmen), Fatebringer Hand Cannon (Sister), 2 x Hecuter 9/5 and Mariette (scum), Death Light lasgun and Steelburner pistol (other guardsmen) and Fury Laspistol (psyker). They also have armory with basic cheep sp/las weapons for undercover missions.

My guess that most crying "FA is broken" comes from those that play DH as RAW, combat heavy D&D in space.

Given that most of the acolytes barely know how their weapons work and just hope fiddling the right knobs and saying the right words will make them function I gathered that modern LMGs are probably in better shape than an autogun or the likes.

I'm happy with the -10 because with an aim (remember in BC they're all half-actions now) it's 0, which has the same BASE chance to hit, as a single shot. Thus, the whole "first bullet doesn't fly wild" thing, is, in fact, kept relatively in tact. It just means the rest of the bullets aren't also going to all smash into the target.

Flail-Bot said:

Ugh, and weapon training trait is what exactly? Simply put if you have weapon training you know at least how to field strip/clear/unjam your gun and fire it in at least half competent way. Note that official sources say so.

By your reasoning all guns should be poor qyality/unreliable to start with and no character should have BS of more then 20-25...

I'm happy with the -10 because with an aim (remember in BC they're all half-actions now) it's 0, which has the same BASE chance to hit, as a single shot. Thus, the whole "first bullet doesn't fly wild" thing, is, in fact, kept relatively in tact. It just means the rest of the bullets aren't also going to all smash into the target.

Two things about that:

-half action for FA does not cut in. Firing anything on FA will take you more time to get in proper posture then firing single snap shot while aiming center mass.

-firing FA does add chance to hit, if you aimed too low you will hit with 2nd/3rd round - that is SOP when firing bursts, aim at legs, you will hit almost for sure.

If you never fired FA arms it is a bit hard to describe but let's put it this way- at 50m you can fire 10 rounds from AK and at least 7-8 will hit standard standing target unless you are brain dead blind squirel. On moving target count 4-5 hits. Best I have seen was a drill sargent that managed 28/30 rounds on FA at 100m in single burst , firing at standard standing target... He was pretty unique in that regard and pretty big...

Now in DH it is this way, lets say AK is autogun with 100m base range and average soldier is BS 35:

Stationary target: 35+10 (short range)+20 (FA) - 65. So imposible to hit with more then 7 rounds - pretty much OK.

Black crusade 35 + 10 (short range) -10 (FA) +10 (aim) - 45, or max 5 hits. Very, very not OK.

Now, why FA is not that popular in RL? Simply - it uses a lot of ammo and you are never a single one firing. 9 men section firing semi-auto will put a lot of fire and last longer then when firing on FA. Note however that even armies that put burst limiters on their weapons (US primary) uses FA capable weapons for SF.

Basically:

- FA should take more time then single shot.

- FA should add chance to hit at standard range, bigger with weapons with no/small recoil (las/plasma/melta) - IMO best is +10 for SP/bolt and +20 for las/plasma/melta.

-some weapons should be harder to fire FA (heavy caliber ones - Armagedon autogun, Orthlac autopistol and such), so lets make trait "Hard to Control" which reduces bonus on FA to hit to +5.

-Semi burst should be at least as viable option as single shot - it gets +5 to hit at stadard range. Should be quick to use, so half action.. Again +5 for SP/Bolt, +10 for Las/plasma/melta.

-Rapid firing should be alowed, anyone even remotely competent will squize at least 2-3 aimed shots in 5 seconds firing any semi-auto weapon (WW1, during "mad minute" well trained British troops fired 25-30 aimed shots from bolt action rifle (S/-/- in DH) in 1st minute). So allow rapid firing at semi rate, roll to hit for each shot, +5 bonus for previous hit, -5 minus for previous miss). Takes more time then quch 3-round burst, so full action.

-all pistols/rifles should have semi mode of at least 2, no more then 4 (most already have, but strangely autopistol does not). This increases viability of las weapons - laspistol with s/3/- is quite comparable to at least stub automatic. laspistol with s/-/- is crap.

Finally this gives following advantages:

single shot

+ uses small amount of ammo

+ can use accurate trait

+ no chance of colateral damage (provided you hit - and this can be important a lot if GM is smart)

+ only mode that enables Accurate trait to be used

- it is single hit no metter how well you roll.

semi

+ small bonus to hit

+ chance of additional hits

- uses more ammo then singe shot

-bigger chance of jamming

rapid firing

+ more chance to hit (firing 2-3 times)

- uses more ammo thhen single shot

- does not get initial bonus for semi

FA

+ bonus to hit,

+ chance of additional hits

- uses a lot of ammo

- bigger chance to jam,

- noisy - single shot might be ignored in certain cases ("I was sleeping and someone fired gun waking me up... Or so I think"), autofire does not get ignored that easy.

What does this also do:

Makes las weapons more atractive, specially if you get some of (rare) FA las weapons. Las weapons are also boosted by the fact they usually have larger mag capacity so might allow semi/FA firing where SP/bolt would need to pause to reload.

Limits FA somewhat but still making it viable mode of fire

Boost semi somewhat, which was totally underused mode.

That sound like a pretty good system, actually. A bit complicated though, but I like it. I was also thinking of a SB type of reduction for recoil for large guns, but many heavy weapons already have a SB req.

I'll pass this onto my DM and see what he thinks, but I'm pretty sure he'll reject it for its complexity.

I too would like to see SA see some more use.

First @ Bojan...**** dude you had me snorting grape juice out my nose due to laughing when i read the comment about brain dead squirrel comparison for missing...lol too damned funny

Secondly...and more to the point @ Darth Smeg and Flail bot...i agree with your take on it for the FA rules switch to BC standard....that is what my group uses instead of normal ones....I and my group however still make judicious use of called shots for single fire mode ONLY...

We use the BC rules for FA and they work fine for us ( saved the groups tails when a genestealer came barreling down a ships corridor after them )

My point about Called Shots was that in DH it was just a difficulty modifier, but from Rogue Trader and through Black Crusade it became its own combat action. And when BC changed Semi and Full auto to Half Actions, Called Shots are still a Full Action. And while Single Shot got a +10 modifier, Called Shots are still stuck at -20.

And being a Full Action, you can't combine it with Aim (in the same round). So while you can do Aimed Single Shots at +20 every round, Called shots are at -20 every round, or +/0 every alternate round. The difference has been increased quite a bit from "plain" DH, where an Aimed Called Shot would be at -10 every round.

But that's a wee bit off topic

Definitely an oddity in the rules there Darth Smeg i most cetainly concurr...major mess up actually since a called shot IS really nothing but a careful aim on a single location....personally i simply use a standardized table ( GM option for any potential conflits/issues with its use )

Called shots can ( but dont have to ) make use of Aim action but there are penalties associated with it ( offset by careful aim options ) To illustrate what can be done by a real person using a called shot without what wed call "aiming" google the worlds fastest quickdraw/gunslinger and watch the vid ( this is the man that appeared on stan lees superhuman tv show )

Called shot location Penalty

Torso none ( assumed hit location for normal combat )

Legs -10 ( slightly smaller than chest but more mobile targets )

Arms -20 ( around half chest / torso size and almost always moving )

Head / Hands / Feet -30 ( small targets prone to bob/weave during combat )

Fingers / Toes -40 ( extremely small targets*usually* always moving or covered )

NOTE: Using this table assumes you thrown out the normal one for DH hit locations ( its totally jacked up anyway )

Head is easier to hit then arm (discarding shoulder hits, which should go under body).

Personally I think that just averaging these out to the -20 in the books work just fine. (Fingers aren't a hit-location, and would get a -30 or so anyway according to the size-charts in the RAW).

But then I tend to reduce complexity in the rules wherever I go rather than introduce more of it