Morangias said:

Grey Knights already use sorcery since they use blood magic and great spells based on the sacred numbers of the great powers of chaos. The codex admits that thier warriors are steeped in the same madness as they must use the weapons of the enemy to combat it. They are the biggets heretics and hippocrites of all. I hate that as ignores one of the themes of 40K which is the weapons of the enemy corrupt always. Its a big change from what they used to be.

Reverend mort said:

Fluff actually states Abaddon would long ago have become a Daemon Prince. He purposely refuses to until he has reached his goal.

Also the ''Failbadon'' hatred online is pretty silly. The fluff state that every Black Crusade has brought Abaddon closer to his goal. The last one allowed him to obtain those flying citadels for some ''enigmatic'' long term scheme plus Cadia has not yet fallen but as soon as it does, the door is wide open.

Looks to me as if Abaddon is slowly crippling the Empire, wearing the enemy down and recovering a variety of unique resources.

The reason the plot hasn''t progressed to the next stage is simply because they don''t want to damage the Empire further and/or they probably don''t know themselves what ''strange'' enigmatic plot he has planned.

Hence all the conspiracy theories regarding Necrons and what not. There are fragments of Abby lore all over the place and probably not coherent.

In the end the speculation doesn''t matter in the least. The fluff says he''s the most succesful and the greatest threat since Horus. And the BC''s were succesul.

And yes one can question this. But that''s more like finding plotholes in the massively obese 40K Lore. It may be canon but it is indeed at times incoherent.

As for the Daemon Primarchs, besides Angron, most are stated as being introvert and involved with ''abstract'' matters more than their own legions. I believe one of the Night Lords novels has a cool quote in regards to it.

So for better or for worse, 40K''s version of the Antichrist turned Space Marine is here to stay as numero uno. And I frankly don''t mind that much.

On a secondary note i''ve always been a GK fan and GK player and I LOVE the fluff in the new book.
It amazes me how every codex that comes out there is mostly just ''spite''. Demeaning talk, elitism and personal attacks directed at authors.

andrewm9 said:

One of the big themes is Chaos is dangerous and it is everywhere, not that corruption is inevitable. The Emperor used sorcery to make the Primarchs and Thousand Sons were loyal sorcerers until the Imperium turned on them. Some characters believe that corruption is inevitable, but the setting itself doesn't take that route. Hypocrisy is also part of the setting. One of the great themes within the Imperium is where to draw the line. Where is the risk of falling too high? Where is the results that the knowledge and power offered so great that it outweighs the risk? The GK are individuals who are as resistant as possible to falling, surrounded by other resistant individuals who can recognize the signs of corruption, and face the worst terrors imaginable. That they might not be as Puritanical as the few who know about them believe may not be to your taste, and that's entirely legitimate and understandable, but hardly against the grain of a setting where secretive organizations make hidden compromises and deal with horrific truths they conceal from the rest of Mankind.

Darthvegeta800 said:

Agreed. Additionally, one can obtain quite a clear picture of why Abaddon doesn't launch a frontal attack on the imperium by reading the CSM novels. In the Word Bearers novel Dark Apostle , for example, the Legion's Host is facing a combined assault by the IG and Mechanicum forces. Although the WB are superior in both combat and tactical acumen, it swiftly turns into a war of attrition.

The Imperium's numbers are vast, and if they have to sacrifice 10.000 guardsmen and two tanks for each CSM they kill, they will gladly do it.
If Abaddon was to call a Crusade on Terra, his forces would simply perish little by little, either by the IG or the Imperial Navy.

Abaddon has sought several ways to gain advantage in previous Black Crusades. Doesn't look like a fool to me.

Yeah, a few major points on Abbadon:

First, everyone thinks he is a failure because it looks like it, not realizing he's accomplished his -goals- in each of those Crusades, to him he hasn't lost yet. They were masterful feints that look like failures to his enemies, but have always obfuscated something bigger. The Gothic War? Got him Blackstones and the Planet Killer… others have probed weak points and learned how the Imperium will react. The crusade going on in one of the other books had it all a feint that helped him steal a massive supply of Gene Seed (which means new Traitor legions…) They are all victories to Abbadon…

Though the attrition thing is a good point too. Especially when you take into account one other thing. While the IG might have numbers galore. When it comes to Fleets? The Imperium is unmatched. Their navy is bigger than anyone else's, their ships on par with anyone else's, the Imperial Navy is functionally almost an elite. And worse for Chaos is they're dealing with functionally higher tech ships in warfare in space, where some of their other advantages are not nearly as easily used. Yeah some of Chaos' ships have older tech that's longer ranged or more advanced, but in general the Imperium's ships are better on a one for one basis of the same class. Heavier armor (In the one place that matters when it comes to closing the distance to ideal broadside range - the Front), stronger broadsides, and heavier ordinance loads, fighters, and Nova Cannons to make up for the shorter range of the mainline weapons. And yes. Chaos has SOME super weapons that are superior to anything else the Imperium has (Planet Killer, Blackstones), but that's before the Imperial Navy's 'numerical' advantage is thrown into play. All those super weapons can still be brought down by fleet. Even the Chaos Marines aren't worth much if they can't manage to board an enemy ship or get to Planetside.

During the last crusade the Planet Killer was destroyed so was 6 or the 8 black fortress….

rumors of a new planet killer are out but it's chaos so I doubt it…

crisaron said:

Yeah, it's chaos. It might still show up and be the same one!

crisaron said:

Actually, while the Planet Killer was rumoured to have been destroyed at the end of the 12th Black Crusade, no conclusive evidence of its destruction was ever found.

As for the Blackstone Fortresses… one can scour the life from a world with little difficulty. Individually, they're terrifying weapons of immense potency. The fact that Abaddon still has any of them is something to be worried about.

Remember, it is easiest to win a war if your opponent does not know your goal, because then he cannot adequately defend against your onslaught. Abaddon plays his plans close to the chest, as all successful long-term strategists do. Abaddon was an accomplished general when the Imperium was young, having been bred to triumph in battle and spending centuries learning from the example of one of the most gifted generals in human history. He's had over a hundred centuries to plan and wage his war, employing seers and prophets and malign powers to gain insights beyond the comprehension of sane or mortal men. He consorts with entities beyond the frayed edge of reality whose motives defy easy comprehension, and weaves their goals into his own to ensure their aid. He balances the petty lusts and vile desires of a vast horde of followers and allies while pursuing short-term objectives.

Beyond even that, he is a figure of terror for those who know of him. He is the mightiest son of the Emperor's favoured son. He stood at the right hand of the foulest traitor mankind has ever known. He is a terror from the legends of the earliest and darkest days of the Imperium, who yet walks and breathes and wages war. He has stood in the company of gods and watched them die. He has stood in the Emperor's presence, and turned from the light nonetheless. He is, to the Imperium, the literal spawn of the devil, a being whose machinations have seen untold trillions die in the name of a revenge so grand that it cannot be completed swiftly or without absolute certainty.

That is Ezekyle Abaddon, Son of Horus, Lord of the Black Legion, Warmaster of Chaos, Despoiler of Worlds.

I clearly remember a quotes where they said he did not pull out is fleet after a planet was about to be destroyed and lost a few ships just because he wanted to watch close up…

Now that does not seam like a bright tactician to me.

IMO, he lost most of is sanity when Horus fell to the Emperor. He was already bitter and angry at the Emperor just like is pimp Horus. A good leader knows when to take is place not sulk because Daddy Emperator went away and does not want to play with the boys anymore…

Vain and prone to anger, since the start. Easy to goad in a fight, he coudl not forsee the arch enemy of chaos (the Eldar) would move against him.

Yes he as a plan, but cares little about anythign else then is own plan and they can be changed at any moment.

Somehow the crazed, charismatic, iconic leader makes more sense to me as the Champion of Chaos, then a meticulous planer.

Who says Chaos is really trying anyway ?

crisaron said:

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane.

One thing that is consistently overlooked is the the notion of victory conditions.

The Imperium can fight a war with legions of warriors, fleets of starships and the raw power of faith. The forces of Chaos fight wars with those things and with the power of ritual.

One world, one conflict, one massacre, which has no apparent strategic meaning to the Imperium may be of the utmost importance to a Champion of Chaos. One act which makes no sense in a purely mundane environment may have vast metaphysical repercussions. My players are making the most of that now in the campaign I'm running - they're commanding the invasion of an Imperial world, and their war is one fought as much in spiritual and metaphysical terms as with guns and blades.

It's similar to attempting to judge the actions of an Eldar force by only their immediate and obvious acts - it blinds you to the bigger picture, which is a war fought in the warp and across time as well as space. The reason the Eldar are attacking a particular Imperial world at a particular time and place may have nothing to do with the Imperium and everything to do with a larger conflict that the Imperium itself is oblivious to.

The largest-scale wars involving Champions of Chaos should be viewed in the same light, particularly when Tzeentchian Sorcerers (such as several of Abaddon's close advisors) or daemonic pacts are involved.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

My players will also leading invasion on Imperial world. Have any tips how you did it as GM?

And he's still going to fail.

The Imperium has survived the Age of Apostacy and the reign of Goge Vandire. It has survived the Ultima Segmentum splitting off for a millenia or two to become a seperate rival empire. It's had the entire council of High Lords assassinated. Alien creatures dominate the minds of countless billions accross the galaxy and screw things up even worse when they're killed. Assailed on all sides by Orks, traitors and a myriad of other forces for Ten Thousand Years!

But NOW it's going to fall, because Abaddon's Master Plan revised edition #8.88 can't possibly fail? No. The Imperium won't fall, it can't truly fall. Attacking Terra directly would invoke such an Imperial response to make all the battles at the Cadian Gate look like schoolyard slap fights. The Imperium, and the state of affairs in the galaxy, will keep grinding inexorably on… because as we all know, there is only War.

Every so often the Imperium hits these low points. And every so often someone like Lord Solar Macharius (Or.. Ursakar Creed?) comes along to beat back the darkness and the evil it contains. Every so often the Imperium laces up its boots and has its turn to go stomping some heads around the galaxy. The only way to actually make the Imperium start to fall, when you look at the setting, would take highly concentrated amounts of handwavium, just because the writers want it to fall.

One world, one conflict, one massacre, which has no apparent strategic meaning to the Imperium may be of the utmost importance to a Champion of Chaos. One act which makes no sense in a purely mundane environment may have vast metaphysical repercussions.

That's why the Inquisition watches from the shadows.

Or they just let Matt Ward loose with a new chapter and they solve everything … twice over and write their name in bold ittalic character on Aggron. The next you have to do to be cool thing…

crisaron said:

That man Draigo is acting like a spoiled child, goin' about writing his name everywhere

If abaddon dies, he will just become a new chaos god!

named "Tim".

NOOOO the WHEELED CHAIR GOD!!! TIMMY!!!!

If Abbadon dies, they clone a new one. This is not the first time it's happened.

Fenrisnorth said:

and call him "Tim".

Ixionyx said:

Wait…

So the 14th Black Crusade will pretty much be a WAAAAAGH!?

From BFG Traitor Fleets, pg 36…

"It was this lack of pace which was to lead to its eventual downfall, as it was destroyed salvo after salvo of torpedoes, fired at extreme range by the Lunar class cruisers of battle group Omega, shortly after the destruction of Kharlos II."

Unless he built another Planet Killer there is no way he could be taking the original towards Terra. The Sol system is the most heavily defended system in the Imperium. Unless the traitor fleet drastically out numbers the Imperials he will need to revert to real space beyond Pluto because of gravity making such things impossible. And beyond Pluto are the system defense guns, kill sats and other weapons. The largest and most sacred of the Mechanicum vessels to defend Sacred Mars. Also in the Sol system is the Phalanx, Chapter Monastery of the Imperial Fists.

Abaddon would need to strike at hundreds of worlds at once to keep every Legion from jumping to Terra with their barges and strike cruisers. He would have very little chance inside the Sol system.

TheHeavenlyLily said:

First off, the wreck was never recovered. When the Inquisition went searching for it, they found no trace. Second, the Planet Killer was sighted on numerous occasions during the 13th Black Crusade. It's not known if this is the rebuilt original, or a new ship… In either case, though, Abbadon does have one at his disposal as of the 13th Black Crusade. Pleasant dreams, Imperials.

Cheers,

- V.