Hello everyone,

the question is simple. Do you think a format which allowed players to use the older (black-bordered) cards would be a good idea? My dream is that there will be a day when CoC LCG has two (maybe more) formats: The current Adventure League, and Vintage. Vintage would allow all cards ever printed (except the Rip-Off or EE cost reducer rituals) and would be played with 3x as the card limit, 50 cards deck minimum.

I'm sure the current League format is enough for some players, but I'm also sure there are a lot of people who are not excited about it and prefer the older cards.

I would have put up a poll, but I don't know how to do those with the new forum (or if it is even possible). Responses will have to do. I'm hoping to have some small influence on the decision making parties at FFG if we get a lot of supportive responses to this thread.

I think there should be two different event formats. There should be an LCG (white border only) for the new players, and a Classic (Black & White) for established players.

I agree. not only would this apease the folks who have invested time and money into the game, but also "protects" the casual players who are happy with the LCG but would be completely turned off by the competitve players more interested in the black sets.

Im with You, guys.

Not to mention, that in Poland that's the official, "our" format.

So definately - 2 formats - vintage plus AL.

I would strongly support this idea. The 3 card limit and free choice from black and white borders (except banned cards) makes for the best format, in my opinion.

As the song says: "Ebony and ivory, live together in perfect harmony..."

Bard said:

Game of Thrones has a "Legacy format" that allows any non-banned card to be played, but you can only play with 1 copy of any non-LCG card. So, it Highlanders the older cards. And it is not the format for Regionals or Worlds. I expect the same setup to occur in Call of Cthulhu, so you may see something almost like what you want, only not so much fun or as well supported.

I would love a Vintage format allowing 3 copies of both black and white non-banned cards, but I don't see it happening. FFG has no reason to "Officially" support this when they want new players involved. If you want to play Vintage amongst your group, go for it. If you want FFG to officially recognize and support it as a format, I don't see it happening.

id like a gray format for sure. but ill be quite happy with lgc once deck building opens up. phasing out older cards is part of ccgs, and that was what coc was. but id like to continue seeing reprints of classic cards. i think they should tweak(weaken) the former champ cards and reprint them.

higlander as a format is a casual thing.

It offers no deckbuilding possibilities.

Well, we will se. However, looking at the way ffg likes to handle things, and what do they think about players opinion, I don't think this topic will actually help,

Still - it's worth a try.

BTW - what happened to the last champion card's preview?

Nomad said:

Heh, that's a good one.

Hastur said:

Assuming not supporting Vintage will turn some part of the old player base down, FFG should consider supporting that format. A larger group of people brings more money than a small one, and the kind of support I'm hoping for isn't expensive. Printing Nationals banners and certificates can't be unaffordable and announcing official Vintage rules costs very little too. And please, for the sake of the Ancient Ones, don't make it highlander! That's better than nothing but... ehr.

Also what's an important thing to notice, is that keeping the players happy should be one of the priorities for a company that's trying to profit. FFG has certainly done their part of pissing the players off, so any nice gesture would be more than welcome.

And yes, we are going to continue playing the 'old' format with our playgroup. It just doesn't feel the same when you know it isn't official. I'm sure many of us know the feeling.

Edit:

Hmm... can't get the quote to work anymore.

Urban said:
"Well, we will se. However, looking at the way ffg likes to handle things, and what do they think about players opinion, I don't think this topic will actually help,

Still - it's worth a try."

Yup, that's my thoughts exactly - it's worth a try.

I can understand that desire for bringing an existing collection of cards to the table in a sanctioned game. But the very first six-week league, in my opinion, should be focused on getting new players into the game.

In fact, the first "Encounter" of the league is trimmed down to the point where someone that has never played can walk into the store, see people playing and buy the sets they need right then in order to get started. For the first league, this makes sense to me.

But the question of this topic is asking about format, right? Are you referring to Tourament play (of which there is no format at all yet), future league play, or something else?

From a business sense, I would have to say that the CCG format for CoC failed, or else they would still be making that game. I don't understand how the LGC is supposed to succeed if people keep hoping it follows the old format. With 240 new cards being printed each year in the Asylum Packs, I don't think that the drought of great combo cards will last.

but they also will need to sell more than one of each asylum pack. so they will need to print cards people will wanna buy. the ccg failed cause not enough people were buying boosters. the cost to print cards is probably just the same as a few years ago, but now ffg did away with printing tons of commons, cause people werent willing to spend 2.50+ for one rare.

and ffg needs to have some sort of competitive format or they will sell less lcg products than ccg. remember just the other month ffg had that great deal on boxes if they dont support black cards for atleast alittle bit, alot of people are gonna feeled ripped off, and consumers that feel they were taken for a ride are less like to buy again.

since the white border move (which i have no problem with)ffg has done nothing but make the old players madder and madder with every annoucement they made regarding coc. they should do this as a sign of good will, even if they say black borders will be phased out in the next few years(months) or every X asylum packs will see the end of a ccg expansion......something to show they dont hate us.

and supporting a 'all but banned cards' format could do just the trick.

I would say that the losing business plan is to print more than you sell.

When you have to estimate 3-6 months of consumer interest in a booster pack run, you take a much greater risk than printing just an AP run or 40 cards. And you can measure the level of interest on a monthly basis, allowing you to tune your print runs to current demand.

As for "proving" that they don't hate long time players: I would think that there are two things they can provide to established players. a) more players to play with. b)new cards.

There is absolutely nothing that they can do that will prevent you from playing with the cards you already have. They have made no decrees or rules that ban this sort of play. Now, if you mean "Organized Play", well they have a new product (that happens to use old rules) and they want it to sell. They don't have a huge financial interest in selling their out-of-print cards, so why make any effort to market.deprecated product?

As a new player, I'm frustrated. I hear all these calls for "Black and White!" and bring back the old cards. Well, I can't get them in any serious quantity (total cost and availability), there are already existing tournament rules for playing with black bordered cards (including APs 1-4) and there is plenty of time between now and the summer convention season.

What move could Fantasy Flight Games make regarding the "support" of an out-of-print product that does not alienate their incoming customers? If they want to treat everyone , longtime players and new, as first time buyer of this newly printed game, that certainly seems fair to me.

but they sold boosters for cheap, and alot of people bought them thinking it was a steal to buy them, while it actually looks like ffg was taken advantage of their fans. im glad i bought very little out of that 'sale' with the way things are looking. they knew then if black borders were to be supported officially. so if they dont support black borders in some format for awhile alot of old fans are gonna feel ripped off.

there is nothing wrong with 'in with the new, out with the old' but to give every indication that the old is still part of the community and know full well that you are decieveing them is wrong. when they made the white border change, they said you could use the old cards with the new cards, just you'll be forced to sleeve your deck. if they had no intention of supporting black borders after the transistion they shouldnt have made a statement like that. cause if im playing casually i can play using no sleeves, both white and black cards, 6x playsets and banned cards. casually i can do what ever me and the people i play with agree on.

this league is a fine way to get new and old on equal footing, but they almost need to make sure the old still have a place with all they have said about black borders.

so if they dont do some sort of tourney that uses black cards they basically gave a whole lot of people the middle finger.

But ofcourse there should be a "classic" format, with non of those highlander shenanigans. If I want to play Highlander, I just walk around with a sword, decapitating people. Well, maybe not . But classic should be the classic, non-diluted old-school experience, even if it's marginally balanced.

The major conventions need to crown two champions. I am not bothered by the recent sale of the old stuff. I am not bothered that the new format is front and center. Should be 3X core allowed in a couple months though, I hope. But two champs please. And which format winner gets the championship card?

johnny shoes said:

If they want to do equal formatting, both winners shoulf get to do a championship card.

johnny shoes said:

If they want to do equal formatting, both winners should get to do a championship card.

PearlJamaholic said:

How can you be taking advantage of your fans when you sell them something they want to play? I'm sorry, I don't understand your connection. It seems as though you are suggesting that people are restricted to playing by Tourament rules (none of which are found in either the CCG or LCG starter boxes). What exactly does "officially supported" mean?

In my eye, they had large quantities of out of print cards. They did not want to keep them in stock anymore, so they ran a clearance sale to move them. These cards work perfectly well for those that want to continue playing the CCG version of this game. Since there are no other Tournament rules listed at this point other than the existing black bordered tourney rules, I don't see a problem here.

For that matter, tourneys are Gencon and Origins might be supported by the manufacturer, but they are run by the event organizer. That's who has the final say in what the rules of the tournament are.

Again, to restate my point of view: FFG sold out-of-print cards this winter to move their inventory. Nothing makes these cards work differently than they worked last year. As with all games, ALL games , it is up to you to convince your friends to play that game with you. I don't think that FFG tricked anyone into believing that this would be easy to do with a new LCG version of the game in the works. And since there are still more cards to choose from in the CCG print runs than in the LCG print runs, I don't see the new series as an obstacle to playing with your long-time, existing players. I view the LCG as a way to get new players into the game.

maybe we see it differently, but some players only try to collect playsets of cards cause they want to play and win in tourneys that have prizes. i dont see why 'official tourneys' is hard to understand. tourneys ran by the publisher, makes it official. i can run any tourney of coc i want (i think, maybe it breaks copyright laws) but if ffg sticks their name on it that makes it 'official.' hope that clears up the official tag.

so it is misleading to sell cards that may be obsolete for any official tourney play. at the time of the sale everyone was under the impression that black and white would co-exist (that may still be the case, ffg has been very mum on many things lately). to a lesser extent its almost like selling someone a 2 penny concert ticket for yesterdays show. it might still be neat to have and collect, but most of its usefulness is gone.

maybe where i started playing cards in the shop down the road, it has a ***** group of players but some people only play to win. they only play games outside of tourneys to fine tune the deck they will take in hopes of winning something.

i think maybe black borders is dead, and they know if thats the case they cant sell boxes to many players, cause the cards are nearly useless. so they sold them for cheap knowing people will easily pay a small price for something that has a higher (precieved) value.

There should definetly be two formats. I won't be playng the adventure crap since it takes deckbuilding out of the game and replaces it with randomness and boring prebuilt decks.

Anyway, I'm not very optimistic about FFG deciding to start a vintage format. I'm pretty sure CoC as I knew it is dead.

Once they allow 3 x white, I'll build both formats. Until then Core Torch the Joint and Anthropology Advisor are the only core cards getting use. Well, so far. Blue Clarney, Forest Sister, Triggerman, and Shub are geting consideration. I am laying odds that FFG will officially support tournaments in both formats. The 1 X rule in place is understandable, but an extreme example of the targeting of the new base. I am sure the loyal older base speaks up with me to say, let's hope 1XCore does not last. But it just may, for all of Block Julia. Maybe FFG could switch to 3 X Core at AP V or VI. LCG-only owners can share within the next few months to achieve the white deck they want at the 3 X rule. Wow, and we were defending 4 X so recently.

I understand the frustration of buying the black bordered cards during the Christmas sale, but if a product is part of the sale, it usually means that the demand is dead and it is going away. If FFG wants to do mixed or CCG tourneys along with the LCG, then fine. But really the CCG is gone, and I would not blame them if they only had LCG as official tourney, cuz that is where their customers are.

The owners of the black border cards are current customers. We're not dinosaurs.

Ignoring the needs of established customers is always a bad move. Now, I'm not saying thats what FFG are doing. At the the moment they are trying to draw new players in via the LCG format, which is a good move. However, they must not ignore those of us who have played this game from the start and want to continue playing.