for space wolf I wanna add:

melee:

chain axe, Melee, dam:1d10+5R pen:3 Tearing 14kg cost:6

Icecold short axe, Melee, dam: 1d10+2R pen:2 Razor Sharp 4kg cost:3

mono Icecold axe, Melee, dam: 1d10+3R pen:2 Razor Sharp 10kg cost:3

Icecold axe, Melee, dam: 1d10+5R pen:2 Razor Sharp, unbalanced 12kg cost:4

Power axe, Melee, dam: 1d10+5E pen:6 Power field 8kg cost:15 (Respected???)

Wolf Claws, melee, dam: 1d10+6E pen:8 Power field, special, tearing [add two dice(not one) and choose the best???] .......

chapter trapping change:

mark of the wulfen grant frenzy talent (not the wolftooth necklace)

wolf belt: Add +3 to any tests made to regain Cohesion or prevent Cohesion Damage.

wolftooth necklace: Gain +2 WS when fighting an enemy in single melee combat.

wargear:

Weapon Charm req:20 Distinguished

comments?

Gantz the slaughterer said:

Before the revised weapon stats you could already have some Wolf Claws. This was where Flesh Render for SW from the errata came into play, but now they changed Tearing to Proven and Flesh Render for a SW has lost it's usefulness until he gets a Frost Blade. Ok he could use a Chainsword but the higer chance for Rightous Fury isn't worth going without a Power Field. For a Blood Angel who won't get any Chapter Weapons or Relics with tearing this is even worse.

I think Lightning claws should have stayed the old way!

Kain McDogal said:

sorry i was looking the old stat.....yes you have right....

maybe pen:9 ???

or add also the tearing ??? (power field, proven(4), tearing, special)

Don't get the wrong Idea, I'm not trying to be mean here. But, Space Wolves have already got quite a bit of love. Free talents, great sustained solo mode abilities, etc. Why should they should have access to basic wargear that's just better than what everyone else gets?

Chain axe? Ok, its a little ostentatious but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. But, theres nothing stopping other chapters from using one (blood angels for one?). In fact, if I remember correctly there already exists an FFG version of a chain axe. Most axes come unbalanced though, so you better think of adding that in.

Icecold? What the heck is this? Granted I'm not 100% on Space Wolf lore, but I've never heard anything like this. Looks to me you just want a combat blade that does more damage and can pen better than what other players get.

Power Axes already exist, they're in the main rulebook. And they work just fine as is. No reason a Space Wolf power axe should work differently, or with cheaper requisition.

Wolf Claws.... Okay I'd let this one slide. That is, if you hadn't increased its damage ability, or lowered the renown level. Seriously, an extra flesh render roll? If it was "one WS re-roll once per combat encounter," for 35-40 req. at distinguished+, I'd been fine with that. But just Lightning Claws - but better and at a lower renown level to boot? Just wrong.

As for chapter trappings, I think they are fine as they are. The ones in the rule-book seem very fitting for space wolves. Although the free frenzy talent did come out of nowhere like that, although I suppose it's fitting (at least more so than flesh render).

WS bonus for 1 on 1? Space wolves aren't exactly known as a duel-y chapter. Sure there are great stories of SW going up solo against an enemy or great monster but this sounds more like a Black Templar thing. Looking for stacking bonuses with your new Saga Solo Mode are we?

Wolf belt? So space wolves need another item to boost their anti-cohesion damage above the new one they just got in first founding? Not really. I think giving brand new characters bonuses against things like this too early is a bad idea. Now if you just wanted it so you could stack it with the pre-mentioned first founding item, well thats powergaming and not a very good reason to make changes.

And a weapon charm... Already a Dark Angel thing (although I'll be honest, I don't see a fluff precedent myself). I'm sure you really, really don't want to jam, but if you justify side-shifting this item for space wolves then its just as viable to side-shift it for other chapters as well. I'm sure Imperial Fist PC's would really like to not jam as well.

As I said at first, I'm not trying to be mean or what-not. I'm sure you are a Space Wolf fanboy. There's nothing wrong with that. The Blood Angels (Bloodquest spec.) got me into 40k, so I gravitate towards them myself. But just because they are your favorites doesn't mean all their toys should be better than another person's favorite. And we really shouldn't make one chapter obviously better than anyone else. Otherwise the nature of this game (deathwatch) and a lot of the RPG and fun elements get washed out as everyone chooses the same chapter.

herichimo said:

You have forgotten the super cool Fenris helmet which strips these damned Space Puppies of their single handicap when using solo mode abilities and can be given out by the GM like candy (**** those official answers, they make every finely woven argument fall to dust). Who would ever have the idea that some people may be jealous of the SW? But why should they have access to basic wargear that's just better than what everyone else get? I don't know maybe because the SW were left out of the First Founding Weapon Tables (there is the rune staff but this is not really a weapon only a Psychich Powers amplifier and useless for non-Wolf-Priests)?

Looking at the cost for a White Scar Power Lance the suggested cost for an iconic SW Power Axe (a short axe) wouldn't be over the top as to the icecold weapons they refer to the non powered blades and axes young Wolf Scouts take into the field and as long as these are not standard issue like Astartes Combat Knifes and has to paid by Requisition I don't see anything wrong with that.

Don't get ME wrong but everytime when it comes to the SW on this forum you are the first to jump in and deny them their abilities even if they have them by RAW so I guess your opinion on this type of posts isn't very objective and therefore doesn't really matter.

Well, the Space Wolves are pretty buff, RAW.

Morangias said:

I would have said RUFF, as opposed to buff. trololol.

Kain McDogal said:

Meh, I'm not a fan of supposedly basic, iconic-to-the-Chapter powers (i.e. Solo Modes) having easily-trumped applicability issues (i.e. wearing a helmet, which is usually a really good idea so you don't die). I think the helmet was a good compromise to a problem inherent to their Solo Mode, even if it did start a number of contentious topics about how to actually get it (and, was there an official ruling? If so, please to link!)

The conversion of chain/power/force weapons from DH to DW stats (non-errata stats, mind you) is really easy, so the chainaxe is very simple to port over, and it makes sense for BA successors as well as the Wolves, among others. I converted a Force Axe as well, simply because I think the axe is more iconic to the themes of the Wolves than any other weapon - it's very Viking-esque and doubles as a tool, whereas a sword is only a weapon.

On your other points, I agree. Their Chapter table sorta sucks, but the free Talents, First Founding options, and relics/wargear from every book more than make up for it. And there's always Elite Advances if you want, say, Thunder Charge or something.

Kshatriya said:

Morangias actually posted an official Answer from Andrew Fisher at the end of last topic concerning the Fenris Wolf Helmet:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

try to better explain.....

i think it's a good idea if anyone with a good kowledge of the various chapters try to "fix" something...... (i konw the wolf)

for melee:

from games workshop, in the codex, you can read:

"well versed in the bloody arts of swordmanship, each new recruit is given a deadly chainsword....or an axe finely balanced...."

("icecold" was only the name for some melee weapons done by the SW...)

so i suppose to use the stat of the chainaxe taken from black crusade and to create some compact and balanced axe...

the short axe was the same of the astartes knife with razor sharp (better with RS removed?)

the monoaxe was the same of the cerimonial sword with RS (better with RS removed?)

the axe was only a monoaxe with two more damage and unbalanced (better with RS removed?)

the power axe was a short "less damage" power axe

the wolf claw in the codex says: "wolf claw are heavily armoured gauntlets with curved, razor-edger talons sheated in a rippling power field...they allow the wielder to cut four times instead of once with each strike....." I try to change a little bit... i nedd suggest...

I agree that all chapter have their "personalized" weapons.....I only try to do that for the wolf....but i suppose that also other chapter have their unique weapons

for the chapter trapping:

from the codex: "the mark of the wulfen is a corruption of the canis helix that can cause the bearer to devolve into a killing machine when the battle frenzy is upon him..." (and I suppose that no wolf can take this ability plaiyng deathwatch).

from the codex: ""wolftooth necklace ...may be awarder in recognition of his martial excellence...in close combat the model add +3 to WS" I need suggest....or simply this become an honour ?

totally agree for the wolf belt.....better that this item become an honour!

for wargear:

if you look at the warious picture of the wolf....they are all, weapons included, adorned with skulls, runes, tooth, pelt etc.....better that are only "charm" ???

(I suppose that also the "DA Weapon Charm", become only a simple charm...)

waiting for suggestion....

and for "fix" for the other chapter...

at least... sorry for my poor english

The problem with trying to parse codices like that and making working rules out of it is, each and every Codex treats it's army like it's the deadliest, best equipped thing ever. Surely you can see how extrapolating that into the rules doesn't really work.

Indeed! ALL space marines are uber killers to the max, best of the best...and I say this as a Space Wolf fanboy meself! There is no Chapter that is better than another (except for Ultramarines: we gotta play along and tell them they're super bad-a$$-to-the-max, 'cause they're sensitive...

The Space Wolves seem to have plenty of love already... though some chapters seem to get more love than others (Imperial Fists seem pretty gooned-up to me, for example).

That being said, allow me to add that whatever your GM lets you get away with is perfectly cromulent to me...by all means make the Space Wolve fit the image you have.....my only point, i s'pose, is to beware of power-gaming...it gets boring real friggin' quick, and tends to piss off the other players....the most fun our group has had was derived through roleplaying of statistically weak characters - the main instigator of the group was the Kid! (he was a mouthy, mischevious little s.o.b.)

So, yeah, just remember: the stats don't make the character; you do. Play a space wolf the way space wolves ought to be played and to hell with the stats!

Zappiel said:

Here here, well said.

Gantz the slaughterer said:

As for your own personal GMing. Well first off let me applaud you for replying with a sensible request for more input. Instead of immediately attacking and name calling those who did not immediately agree with your personal beliefs. That takes a lot of maturity, wisdom, and strength of character.

I can understand and agree with your desire to make your space wolves more flavourful with the addition of axes and the like. But for the most part I'd simply drop most of your ideas. I'd keep, and focus on only the chainaxe, normal axe, and wolf claws. The reason is, as stated above, for balance reasons. As a GM you do not want to be seen as having a preference to any specific race/class/specialty. Nor do you want to make one of your players disproportianatly more powerful as it detracts from the game and the other player's enjoyment. Some suggestions though, if you are hell-bent on adding these into a campaign for fluff reasoning.

As stated earlier chainaxes are found in other books, notably the main Dark Heresy armoury. If we were to extrapolate that wargear option it would come out to something like this: 1D10+5, Pen 4, Tearing. With a requisition cost of 5, available to all space marines. I would think of adding unbalanced in there due to the heftier size of an Astartes version, but I'll leave that to you.

A standard Axe should simply be 1D10+4 Pen 2, Unbalanced. The unbalanced to off-set the greater damage. No razor sharp either. That just makes it more powerful than your standard blade, making it less of a roleplay option and more of a powergaming option. Plus the combat blade Astartes use are already sharpened to a mono-molecular edge. A cutting edge only a single molecule wide is pretty much as sharp as you can make them.

Finally, your suggestions for the Wolf claw were just too much! Cheaper req, ealier renown, and more power. No space wolf would ever take normal lightning claws with those stats. If it were me, I'd make them as I stated above. Normal lightning claws with a single WS re-roll per combat encounter, bumping the requisition cost of a single claw to 36. This keeps with their flavour but doesn't make them a must have powergaming option over the normal claws.

As for your other options, keep the following in mind.

Your description of the nick-nacks a space wolf might adorn himself with fits well with a charm. Small things you may take of any type to 'nudge' fate into helping out your character. These are in the Deathwatch main rulebook. I'm sure the chapter trapping would also cover one or more of these decorations on his armor.

Bringing in chapter specific honors that can take the place of these space wolf fetishes is an excellent idea.

Also, I've said it before, space marines are not driven by the desire to acquire personal wealth. But this does not mean they are not allowed to "collect" things. An enemie's weapon or gold would not be something a space marine would want as he has no use or they hold no meaning for him. The teeth of a Hive Tyrant he personally killed in an earlier mission though would make an excellent necklace. It represents his personal honor and martial prowess at taking down such a powerful creature. You as the GM could even give him a slight bonus (say +3-5) when making an Intimidate against any character who would identify the teeth and know where they came from (as they would be apprehensive about fighting someone who could beat down a Tyrant).

Again those are just GM and roleplaying guides. Like Zappiel and Morangias, I don't think applying every single aspect of a codex to an RPG is a good thing. Nor is creating any (unintentional or not) sense of preference towards one of the chapters. If you want to add or change things in your games, always ask yourself, "will this be a fair addition, will it make the other players uncomfortable or jealous in some way? Will its inclusion bring more fun and enjoyment than contention and discord?"

Zappiel said:

Thankyou! I now have a sig!

Ahem - thank you, sir; I am honoured!

And to the point of the thread: Gantz has offered some thoughts on the Sons of Russ....and has requested more tweaks for other chapters...meself, I'd love to hear more on the Raven Guard, Salamanders, and Iron Hands (i got a good handle on mongols/White Scars) - First Founding merely whetted me appetite (and was, sadly, fairly thin regardless).

I would offer my two cents' worth on the Dark Angels (my other beloved Chapter); but, to be honest, I'm kinda thinkin' they've done a fair job on the Lion's Sons....