There needs to be an agenda that makes your allies lose the ally trait or makes them cbd or something.

Staton said:

Maybe "Choose one immunity.... list immunities. Choose a trait. All characters you control with that trait gain that immunity." Then perhaps the penalty could be allowing the opponent to choose a trait and each character they play with that trait's cost is reduced by 1.

It'd clearly be something to consider. I don't know if I'd want to make characters lose a trait, but just the same!!

Staton said:

That would be kind of cool. At first I was like 'no way, there is a reason that Ally is a negative trait'. But then I remembered you couldn't run one of the 5 really good ones, so it is a wash.

Dissension is only 50% of the issue - lots of Oakhearts, Varys, and now Old Bear's going to be running around. Dups would help, but any deck running 3X Bronn is...subpar. Very tough to use consistently...*shrug*

Yeah there are a lot of really good unique characters with the Ally trait right now. Why would I pay four gold for them just to have my opponent use one card to discard it?

Geeze, why would I pay 4 Gold for Robert Baratheon when my opponent is just going to use one card to kill him?

Because I have a lot more ways to save Robert from being killed than from discard. There are a lot more ways to discard an ally than kill a noble. It generally takes more than one card to actually kill Robert, or if it is one card, you have to win a challenge or actually do something. You can discard the ally as soon as it enters play with very little ways of saving him.

Ah, see, you're using arguments to defend certain chances where you might be able to keep that from happening. No such arguments were being considered for Bronn. It was a very straightforward "One card can remove him." So, fair's fair. No arguments. Very straightforward- "One card can remove Robert."

Well, and Robb, and Tywyn, and The Red Viper, and War Host of the North, and Treacherous Watchmen......

Staton said:

Whilst I wouldn't mind seeing more cards that can remove traits (ex Old Nan), I think you might be overstating the amount of ally hate you'll likely gonna see. If I look at a tourney deck, alot of the time I see 1xVarys and that's it. A Lanni or Martell deck may use both Arys and Varys but that doesn't radically improve their chances. Targeted kill on the other hand is potentially much more dangerous since its more universal and you'll have multiple copies available. Most of the ally hate is generally more useful in a dedicated trait hate deck and you're more likely to lose other characters than your allies.

Yes, but the Ally trait is a negative trait for a reason. There are cards out there that specifically target them. If suddenly FFG started releasing anti noble cards, people would think twice about playing nobles and any noble card released would be "well its good but that noble crest...." Having an Ally trait makes you a worse card than if you didn't have the Ally trait. Especially when arguably the top house right now is going to have tons of Ally cards in their deck. Its going to increase the amount of Ally specific control people run in their decks. This in turn makes those Ally cards even riskier to run.

@Playground- I'm pretty sure that is going to change with Lanni having so many Ally cards now. I know I'll be running 3 Discensions.

Staton said:

I think this is the key. If Lannister starts heading the field again, then we will see the card a lot more. Kind of like how we see ill-tidings everywhere, because it's the only card that can deal with summer and winter, even though there are other options for attachment removal. Dissension isn't a dead card very often either, most deck have at least a couple of allies, and almost all decks seem to have refugees. I think it's something I'd only slot 1 or 2 of though.

As far as Robert to Bronn goes, I feel like Robert is way more survivable. Varys, Arys, and Jorah are all super-efficient ways of dealing with allies, and you will see them in almost every deck that can run them. The only equivilent for Lords is probably, The Red Wedding? And not everyone can run that effectively.

So I think the issue is, people can get rid of Bronn with next to no effort, and you are going to have to put in some work to get rid of Robert, and losing a 4 gold character to nothing could be what lost you the game.

Doesn't matter to me though, I will probably slot 3x Bronn in my subpar deck for quite awhile.

Rave said:

I have played Lanni a lot over the last few months, even before the box came out (~you listening, Kennon?). While I was running Lion's Gate, I rarely needed it to find an ally. Every house seems to be running allies and/or refugees. Dissension is a subpar card vs. refugees IMHO, but rarely was I unhappy to see one, and now with this box where it seems like every 2nd Lanni character is an ally (and some of the others like the Brothel one and Z's card), that will only increase. Also, I think Bruno's plot might bring some low cost/high strength guys back in vogue, and those are almost all allies.

And Rave, you will do just fine. You always played (back when I actually played against you...~WAY back when you could drive an hour to a KublaCon) weird Lanni builds and played them well and successfully. If I tried 3X Bronn it would kill me every time, but if we play, I won't see a Dissension, Varys, OR Oakheart I am sure I still have happy thoughts about your Queen of Love and Beauty deck - I LOVED that deck.

Rave said:

The thing that bothers me about facing any upcoming Lannister decks isn't the Allies though. Its the Lords (and Ladies). I'm fairly certain you can make a strong Lannister with few or zero Allies in it. Its almost a good idea knowing full well that your opponent will have dead cards in their deck.

Staton said:

There you go! Now we've got an actual start on an argument for your reasoning.

Staton said:

Why does it bother me that this type of control is nearly auto-include? Might as well have it become a game mechanic!

rings said:

Hey, thanks! Yeah, that was a fun deck.

Are you going to Kubla this year?

Rave said:

Of course. Missed once in the last 12 years I think!