The Countdown is running, on 1.1.2012 we will start our new crossover-campaign (DH,RT,DW) with BC Rules.

And as soon as First Founding was available for my players one of them had the idea of starting as a Wolf Scout and to develop it into a Kill-Marine.

Personally I love the SW's and I find the idea of combining a Lone Wolf with the capabilities of a One-Man-Kill-Team very pausible though by RAW he will be stripped of all Fellowship-based Talents that distinguish a Kill-Marine and the most obvious advantage will be to use some Squad Mode Abilities without the support of a Kill-Team but I also noticed he will get acces to some most crucial skills for a Wolf Scout at a much lower cost.

Every advancement for Concealment, Silent Move and Shadowing will only cost him half as much as an ordinary Wolf Scout and on top of it even though his Behind Enemy Lines Special Ability prohibits only the purchase of Fellowship-based Talents I'm not really sure if this could also apply to an Advanced Specialty since a DW Kill-Marine has the Prerequisite Fellowship 40+.

So by RAW I would support his idea but maybe I should raise the cost for all Stealth-Skills. What do you think?

I think it's probably fine as is. One Man Kill Team is a really incredible ability especially as the Core SW passive-type Solo Mode works in Squad Mode, and being alone in Squad Mode means having a lot of powerful options available. Even more so with Sagas and Oath of the Wolf King.

And one of the best things a Kill-Marine gets is access to those Fellowship-based talents (Web of Peers can be really useful in certain circumstances) so your Lone Wolf is getting less payoff for his buy-in to the Kill-Marine table. I don't know that increasing any other costs will really balance anything.

In any case thanks for the cool idea/rules combo. I might have to try it out!

Frankly, I'd say this is one of those times where you have to be the bad guy and make your character pick one and live with it. It's a problem both because of the mechanics issues you've already touched upon, and from the fluff (and frankly common sense) side of things because a Wolf Scout is a stereotypical lone wolf, while the Kill-Marine is the entirely opposite kind of lone-operator, the kind of individual who can walk in to the halls of the great and powerful and command respect, as well as fealty, because of their force of personality.

A "web of peers" character with a heavy focus on fellowship based skills mixed with a gruff silent loner with a focus on poor fellowship and a rule disallowing taking any fellowship based skill or talent...

Like mixing oil and water, or fire and ice...

On top of the whole "multiple advanced specialties" the FFG guys suggest you don't allow.

I really don't see it as workable. And at the very least you're not playing the characters as they are intended to be played.

Blood Pact said:

while i respect your opinion, i do not agree. Kill marines rely on help they can command, the wolf scout while also a lone-operator is just poor at garnering support through diplomacy. Said marine would still need to get help to get from planet to planet he just may have to work a little harder for it.

herichimo said:

Published on 12/25/2011 - 19:27:44

A "web of peers" character with a heavy focus on fellowship based skills mixed with a gruff silent loner with a focus on poor fellowship and a rule disallowing taking any fellowship based skill or talent...

Like mixing oil and water, or fire and ice...

On top of the whole "multiple advanced specialties" the FFG guys suggest you don't allow.

I really don't see it as workable. And at the very least you're not playing the characters as they are intended to be played

"suggest" is the key word in that sentance. also the web of peers could be the wolf scout being either alpha male enough (even for a space marine) or having come to terms with the requirements of his duties, or the third option of having his deeds known. personally i see it as a power game combo, however it seems like the best way to keep a marine and squad modes viable in a crossover game, after all if hes the only marine around squad mode isnt an option unless hes a kill marine and being limited like that in advancements possible is just boring.

Arguyle said:

I think you're overestimating the Wolf Scout. Unless they changed the fluff in the latest Codex (not a Space Wolf fan, so I don't follow it 100%) they're chosen because they're the anti-social Space Wolves, who don't play well with others and just don't fit in among the rest of the pack. They're not just poor at diplomacy, they're downright unlikeable. But as the scouts they're still able to serve their chapter well, and noone cares beyond that.

But I guess I missed the part where they're the only Marine in the game, it being crossover, which really does permit a lot more leeway in both the stretching of fluff and the flexibility of mechanics.

Arguyle said:

I used suggest, as the most neutral word I could think of. FFG actually states, "Normally, it is not possible for a character to gain more than one Advanced Specialities." [sic] But, then went on to say, "At the GM's discretion, a character may possess more than one Advanced Specialities..." But don't focus too much on the GM's discretion. Its also the GM's duty to ensure things work as they're supposed to in the game world. I doubt the deathwatch would send a wolf scout out as a kill-marine. Simply because he is a gruff loner and not likable enough.

Not saying you can't. Just saying it doesn't feel right.

What was that saying? Oh yeah, "Can't have your cake and eat it too."