ak-73 said:

The big one, I feel, is Synchronised Assault - 3 Cohesion at the start of an encounter to allow members of the squad to swap their Initiative before fighting begins, essentially allowing the group to set their own marching order. From Rank 4 onwards, it allows you to rearrange the squad's Initiative round-by-round. Being able to choose when you act is extremely useful.

As it stands, I've never seen my own players clamour to make use of Lead By Example - it just hasn't drawn their attention like other Squad Mode abilities have.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Okay this reply is getting longer than expected...

It's use highly depends on how many brothers can participate aka it is good for Ultra Tacticals with Tactical Expertise. Few groups have more than 2 Ultras, I'd guess so its use is limited, especially at low ranks where you have few non-Ultras who can participate without an Ultra Tactical.

Even at higher ranks with Forging the Bond, it becomes very expensive 4 to 6 Cohesion for a non-sustained power? Yeah, I need very concrete reason to trigger that.

You know, Nathan, Solo and Squad Mode abilities are problematic as is. Some Solo Mode abilities should have rather been talents, in the sense that they should be simply combinable, that is that you can use them in squad mode freely. (What is actually the difference between a passive solo mode ability and a talent? Probably only that the former improves with rank.) And squad mode ability simply haven't been properly priced. Sustained/non-sustained hasn't been properly factored in. A 1 Cohesion sustained power? I'd routinely unlock it at the beginning of the mission, probably. A 3 Cohesion non-sustained power? It needs to be Blood Frenzy or Lead by Example powerful to see any use.

Yes the presence of 2 or more Ultramarines mitigates that a lot. Or the presence of a single Ultramarine with Exemplar of Honour. Without that... I just think some powers aren't correctly priced. I can't see my BA Librarian use Feel No Pain unless faced with a huge horde and the team having enough Cohesion to spare. I don't think it is the most useful power, it's use is very situational and yet it has the highest cost level. Conversely Holy Vengeance makes me much more uneasy as a GM: fortunately I don't have a BT Tactical in my group. 2 Cohesion points for a turn of team-wide melee attacks spam? Yes please. Especially useful against master-tiers who made it into melee and who probably can be ganged up on due to size, overloading their defenses. Also against hordes. Lead By Example is good.

Some quad mode abilities either need a limitation to make them function as intended or a Cohesion cost raise. Fire for Effect is a bit too good, it allows one to double-tap a meltagun if one so desires. For a Cohesion cost of 2 total. Deal. If you'd limit it allow a Reaction-cost Standard attack against freshly appearing targets, it would be a totally different thing. I think situational powers are generally preferrable to generally useful powers as it makes the players have to pick and choose the right one. Regroup, according to Borithan, as meant to express changing cover positions through giving each other covering fire. It ends up getting used to get the initiative on the enemy when bursting out of cover. For 2 Cohesion points you can break ambushes, jump into hostage rescue situations, etc. So I recommend you either impose a limitation (can only be used to move from cover to cover with full cover (no LOS) having to be maintained) or you up the cost to 3 or even 4.

Conversely the Space Wolves squad mode abilities probably aren't worth the price. Tooth and Nails doesn't grant all that great bonuses, sure it's sustained but unless you have 2 or 3 Space Wolves around... a cohesion cost of 1 wouldn't be too low. You have to ask yourself: would you rather use this ability or join Fire For Effect or some other Codex ability. Most of the time the answer is probably 'no'. Pact Tactics is great fun but 2 cohesion (and a reaction) for a single indefensible attack... I don't know. Plus Space Wolves are pack hunters, they should have less or no solo mode abilities and many more squad abilities (for cheaper?) than usual.

Fury of Sanguinius is also a bit overpriced. Cohesion 2 is enough; it carries the huge opportunity cost of not being Blood Frenzy and it only lasts a single turn. With Holy Vengeance that is no problem because the bonus it gives is potentially huge. Here the bonus is merely okayish.

Lightning Strike carries similar to Holy Vengeance an enormous abuse potential in my eyes. I'd rather price it at 3.

tl;dr = one can debate about any of these points here, I guess, but overall I feel the costs of the abilities are off on most abilities. Most by point, some by 2 in one or the other direction. There is few abilities that have been suitably priced (in my view) based on a year of familiarity with the system.

Alex

ak-73 said:

As you say, a lot of it is situational and based heavily on the individual context of group composition, which becomes even harder to account for as more and more options become available (when the rulebook came out, there were only 6 choices of Chapter... now, between Rites of Battle and First Founding, there are all nine Progenitor Chapters, two fully-described successors, an assortment of briefly-defined successors, and the full utility of the Chapter Creation Rules - it basically isn't possible to guess what a given group will consist of).

At that point, costing comes down to gut instinct more than statistical analysis - there are so many variables that I can't account for (such as an individual group's playstyle or composition - factors that I simply don't know) that to try and science some results together is an exercise in futility. And, with a number of abilities around that allows characters to reduce the cost of certain Squad Mode abilities (there are a couple in Rites of Battle as Deeds, and the Oath of the Great Wolf gives a 1 point discount on all Attack Patterns), costing higher tends to be more reasonable than costing lower.

Particularly when putting together the Ultramarines material, I took the view that increased versatility is valuable in its own right, particularly when there is no inherent cost charged for that versatility. An Ultramarines Tactical with Tactical Expertise has unmatched tactical versatility (as I've mentioned before, if he takes the Oath of Duty, he ends up with 5 Attack Patterns and 5 Defensive Stances), and more choices exist for him than he is likely to use in any one session... but the fact that the other options are there means that there's always going to be an ability available to suit a particular situation - pulling off a Coordinated Strike (bonus damage against enemies already attacked by members of the Kill-Team that turn) against a few tough enemies, or immediately disengaging as a group due to Tactical Withdrawal, or the array of choices granted by Considered Defence (and the option to change those choices without ending the ability and re-using it) are all going to be situationally useful alongside those granted by an oath.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I suppose those kill-team members that attacked previously must have joined the Coordinated Strike squad mode ability? Which they can only do under certain circumstances. Even with Rites of Battle this is a hugely limiting factor under many configurations. LbE is so good because for 2 Cohesion at least one team member can benefit immensely for the whole mission and he pretty much can pay it for himself with Rally Cry. Holy Vengeance and Lightning Strike raise red flags for me as Gm because the one potentially allows groups to overwhelm enemies with a ridiculous number attacks (and hits/attacks are damage multipliers as we have seen with ROF) and the other allows the players potentially to alpha strike master-tiers. Granted, raising their cohesion cost by 1 will not keep groups who have the ability to do so from doing so but it's a start, especially with Fear(x) likely draining the cohesion pool first.

Anyway we have been digressing from the subject a bit.

Alex

And while we are on the subject of fixing the Ultramarines: their demeanour is Honour the Codex but they got no built-in bonus to SL(Codex) nor any advances.

Really? Yeah I know game balance and you can't give everyone ever skill and all. But Ultramarines and no bonus to Codex Astartes lore? My rank 3 BA Librarian is more versed in the Codex than his Ultramarine brothers right now. :sadsmile:

Alex

ak-73 said:

As mentioned earlier, they get a new ability in First Founding that helps this. And, to be fair, a Librarian, whose job involves guarding the Chapter's literature and writings, is likely to be more well read than another brother.

What gets me, though, is that every chapter gets SL: Codex Astartes for free. Space Wolves and Black Templars should probably get SL: Legend instead.

ak-73 said:

As mentioned earlier, they get a new ability in First Founding that helps this. And, to be fair, a Librarian, whose job involves guarding the Chapter's literature and writings, is likely to be more well read than another brother.

What gets me, though, is that every chapter gets SL: Codex Astartes for free. Space Wolves and Black Templars should probably get SL: Legend instead.

Yeah but with just one advance the librarian of any chapter is more well-read than every rank 4 or 5 Ultramarine. And not even the hardcore Novamarines get any Codex Astartes bonuses. This gets to the point where my BA Librarian could hold them lectures on the Codex Astartes and all they could do was nod in silence and take notes. Sorry but that doesn't sound right at all, librarian or not. The Ultramarines study the Codex daily, a librarian is likely to study many different writings. And the problem is that the Ultramarines/Novamarines can't become expert at the Codex Astartes outside of high rank or elite advances at all.

It just doesn't make sense whatsoever. The least they can do is give the UM advances, if not an outright starting at +10.

Alex

I'm honestly not sure how much the Ultramarines rules need fixed. I'll caveat this with the fact that I've not gotten to run/play a DW game yet. But concerning the fluff of the Ultramarines. I think FFG did a good overall if not fantastic job. My understanding of the history of the setting it makes sense that for the most part The ultramarines are the example Space Marine. The Primarch was essential in the post heresy Era and that still stands today. The leadership/Cohesion thing might break the game some of the time, but you can make a good leader just as well with the other chapters (My first test character was a Space Wolf Tactical Marine. The +5/+5 Thing is alright too in my opinion as I think Ultramarines tend to look for well-rounded warriors just as their primarch was.

Well my players found an interesting way to go about 'fixing' the Ultrasmurfs and well I applaud them in doing so the way they did. The game we were playing was heresy era and well the majority of the group was nightlords/alpha legion with a thousand sons 'witch' to boot.

One game session they got information on the word bearers pre-emptive strike on the smurfs and after I'd say an hour of yelling and head thumping ork style they decided that the information in question should be with-held and that they would assist the word bearers in their attack. Long story short many smurfs died that day and to make the day a full massacre they took out the word bearers as well only losing half of the group. (Weapon of the day was melta bombs)

On a personal note I liked the idea of the smurfs being the average marine but after Matt ******* Ward got his fanboys hands all over them I lost alot of respect for them. Marines are BY THE BOOK not awesome incarnate. The smurfs are tacticans and leaders so the '+5 to any two stats' crap shouldn't be so it should be +5 int to show extensive knowledge of tactics and +5 fel to show leadership skills.

Not sure how "on topic" most of this will be but here goes anyway. I don't believe that the Ultramarines need any real "fixing", unless you count codifying their stat bumps instead of giving them two picks, and maybe giving them a bump to tactics rolls instead of more cohesion as squad leader.

I think they are favored enough, even reading about them in the books just irritates me, they are the much lauded glory boys, everyone thinks the sun shines our of their asses, and everyone heaps every possible praise upon them, which is why I can't stand them, they are every **** who has ever gone through life doing just well enough to get by but is somehow much beloved for no discernible reason, feeling (because they are told) that they are always right and that no one else is, or ever will, be as good as they are, they are every ******* who thought that just because he is well liked that he is better than everyone else. The fluff does it, their crunch does it, GW in general does it, and obviously FFG does it.

As a concept they just grate on my nerves, and rules wise I think they got a little bit more than anyone else, I especially hate their bonus cohesion, because apparently just by dint of being made with Guilliman's geneseed they are better with group dynamics and bonds of trust than any other space marines especially say...the Space Wolves who are nothing if not tight knit and great at working in teams (and no this isn't me fanboying the SW's its about me hating how "obviously superior" the UM are treated as being), It annoys me because they really are the Favoured Sons, in the rules, in the fluff, and apparently even by the writers. But I, as a person, have a problem with obvious favoritism (most likely because none of it ever comes my way, and I understand that may be a little petty of me, but I'm ok with that), which is why I also have slight issues with Tech Marines, they get a whole bunch of unique and powerful things, and they get a lot of them for no real cost, which I understand it fits in setting but it doesn't mean that it doesn't bother me at least a little. Which is why as a side note I have a running policy in any game I run that if someone plays an Ultramarine Techmarine I will kill them, I let everyone know that when they're rolling characters, but that kind of unabashed cheapness just bothers me deep down in the core of my being, where a ball of solid hate is surrounded by a outer core of liquid hate.

Sorry to rant/ramble....but I think there was a valid point in there somewhere.

TempestSatori said:

I think that the marked part may be where your valid point was/is.

Gamibash said:

I've got on question. Why did they turn on the Word Bearers? Otherwise I like the screams of burning Smurfs...IN SPACE!

I personally would have a beef with a Legion, and a Primarch, that performed no great role in The Horus Heresy, avoiding most of the fighting making their own little Empire, and their only significant role was basically waiting for some one to come and attack them. To then roll up to beleagued, victorious defenders of Holy Terra and proclaim themselves the Masters of Warfare.

It's fine as backstory, people didn't wholy except it but a eventually people decided a united front was the best. But that doesn't actually make you better, being richer doesn't make you better, having a nice manual on warfare might have done, prior to you forcing everyone to use it too, but now everyone else has your tactics AND their own succesful tactics.

If you don't have Honors from Battle of Terra then you aren't as glorious as chapters that do.

I like Imperial Fists better if you hadn't gathered.

Face Eater said:

You should read "Know No Fear" if you haven't already good sir. It's the newest Horus Heresy novel out and it focuses entirely on the conflict between the Word Bearers and Ultramarines at Calth. While I've never been a huge fan of the UltraSmurfs in the 40k fluff, I do have a new found respect for them after reading it all the way through. Definitely would be proud to call myself a Son of Gulliman after fighting my way clear of that mess.

As far as fixing the Ultras in DW, I don't think that they're obscenely out of balance. Everyone's touched on the one flaky thing I've picked up on, and that's the "choose your favored characteristics" option they have. Everything else balances out as being a perk of everyone's perception of the Ultras, not necessarily their actually ability. Access to Command advances and cohesion generating abilities... IMHO that's all based on the perceptions of others, and to be fair I feel that's legitimate for the Ultras. The high profile exploits of their chapter in the modern timeline plus the accomplishments of Gulliman in the past have really stuck them with the "poster child" space marine feel. Whether that's right or wrong isn't necessarily the argument here. Mechanically speaking from a rules standpoint, I feel that their abilities in game are justified by their reputation in the 40k timeline. My only exception to all this (beyond the characteristic thing) is them being the only chapter (I've seen) with access to the "Duty onto Death" talent... as much as I wanna call BS on that one, see my above statement on Calth. Maybe they shouldn't be the only Chapter that has access to it immediately, but they do deserve the honor of keeping it as a purchasable advance.

Also, slightly OT, I'm ridiculously jealous of the fact that Raven Guard are the only ones with automatic access to the "Guerrilla Warfare" talent. I'm a huge fan of those guys, but that ability is just too cool to keep to only one chapter... just saying. lol.

On the matter of Ultramarines in the Heresy, they did attract a lot of attention. The single largest traitor legion was used just to keep the boys in blue occupied and away from Terra. No Ultramarines = hordes of Word Bearers descending on the Emperor. The two largest legions effectively neutralised each other during the crucial battles.

I'm a little irritated that the Ultramarines are pimped as the default leaders, when various other chapters are known for their charisma (e.g. Blood Angels). But they do have the advantage of generally being unobjectional choices - unless you're from a chapter that ignores the codex.

Decessor said:

The largest of all the Legions, was kept out of the battle by MOST, not all, of the Word Bearers. In their own Empire so nice home field advantage. While the defenders of Terra had to repulse 5 legions with 3 of their own (with Fists being alone at one point).

So completely Guiliman let himself get completely wrong footed by Horus, still claims to be the master of all tactics

And Yes, I've no doubt Know No Fear is great, love Abnett. Just hope they have such good writers for their later Heresy books.

Face Eater said:

Unfair. The Ultramarines were attacked from within. Betrayal is a demonic weapon.

And yes, Know No Fear is great.

Face Eater said:

...from behind the greatest fortifications ever devised.

Captain Ventris said:

Most of which was built by Rogal Dorn which had to fight a costly battle on Mars without it's assistance.

But importantly, it's not the Imperial fists that that ever claimed to be masters of warfare, it's the Ultramarines that did.

Dan Abnett gave the Ultramarines and Roboutte Guilleman a trait that we had all been missing. The vision that the Ultramarines would not only be fighting but administrating as well. Robouttes vision was that of the philospher warrior. I think I am comfortable say that Intelligence should be their main trait. Another thing I will keep in mind is the fluff: "Never leave an Ultramarine alive, because if you do you will not live to regret it" or something like that.

Roboutte also mentions 4 chapters any one of whom in combination with the Ultramarines would beat anything & anyone. Iron Warriors, Space Wolves, Blood Angels & Imperial fists.

As long as we're all agreed; the greatest hero of the Horus Heresy - and indeed, the Imperium of Man - is Rogal Dorn and anyone who thinks otherwise is basically wrong.

(Again, spot the Imperial Fist player )

We should, of course, be wary of allowing the 'wannabe Ultramarines' (i.e. the Fists) decide how to properly 'fix' the poor Ultras....

I like the Int bonus and Fel bonus idears, as it seems to match their fluff....of course, most players just can't bring themselves to play a smart, likeable spacemarine, when one can gain WS, BS, Str, Tough, or Ag bonuses and really min/max things....

And Ultramarine hubris is just too perfect to pass up...their weakness is their pride; their successes will lead to their downfall - priceless!

Now, my objection to extant fluff is the constant 'by the book' attitude they seem to consistently display as antagonists....I don't feel it's fair to have their weakness be an infallible war manual that seems to constantly be, um, fallible....much better to let their pride be their downfall, in my opinion.

And, we should also keep in mind that the Ultras are the base stock for 40-50% of existing chapters....so most chapters will, more or less, be ultramarines. Anything we do to 'fix' the ultras will also trickle-down to the other guilliman chapters, which form the bulk of the Imperium's space marine force...just sayin'

Zappiel said:

Well isn't that where their hubris is going to express itself? If the infallible war manual is going to have a limit it when they try to apply it in situations that don't follow the book. Such as, for example, they are seconded to an organsisation that doesn't follow the codex in the least.

"What does the codex say brother fistus?"

"It say's we should have a combat squad of devasators backing us up you guys shouldn't have jump packs"

Also, I can't help but feeling somewhere along the way the Codex has gone from a document that laid down the organsation of Chapters to the be-all and end all of combat tactics, which is interesting as Horus was by far the best tactician in attack and Dorn was the best tactictian in defence.

For the advances, for most of the other codex chapters I said, that the players must select one advance from the two chapter advances and the other can be any other advance (or the other chapter advance). It's only the most zealous and close minded chapters that should really be that inflexible, such as the Templars, Flesh Tearers and Carcharodons, even the Space Wolves (who aren't codex) value flexibility.

Zappiel said:

Which is fine, of course that's why IF direct successors are the poster boys for the 25th aniversary of the game and the darlings of the last edition of the game while the UM successors that deify guilliman and don't dare deviate from codex are... ¯\_(?)_/¯

I have always understood the Codex to not be infallible or fallible - rather, it is interpretive. As with Bible Scholars, you can pick a verse or chapter, or a whole book, and approach it from a hundred directions. The Codex is fantastic - the Marine's interpretation is the important part. So when someone says "hey, that's against the Codex!" it's a matter of interpretation.

Ultramarines treat the Codex as a religious item, and so it is THEIR personal biases and experiences that color their perceptions. So, consider this: we may call the Deathwatch "non-codex". As far as Chapter organization, this is true, but the Deathwatch is a cooperative special forces organization, really. So, if it was truly "against the Codex" in an overall sense... the Ultramarines wouldn't send so many of their men, if any. So, to me, that says that there are likely provisions for such black-ops in the Codex, that it is a useful and good and necessary thing.

The better you understand the thought process of Theology and scripture-interpretation, the better you can play an Ultramarine. An Ultramarine's surety in HIS interpretation of the Codex could be his weakness, but he could learn that his interpretation of the document is not the only, or maybe even not the correct one.

They are scholars and tactical and strategic theologians. Guilliman's importance is not whether he can execute an attack or defense the best - it is in his ability to organize on both the individual and grand scale. He is NOT one of the greatest heroes of the Horus Heresy. He made his true mark as an administrator and a leader - not the same kind of leader as Rogal Dorn, he is a leader on a larger level than the battlefield. He ORGANIZED, and that is just as important. Strategy is just as important as Tactics and/or being a righteous butt-kicker. I don't know if the comparisons between Guilliman and the other Primarchs is necessarily that applicable, in this light.

Captain Ventris said:

I agree with this.

My view on the tactical aspects of the Codex are a little different. I see the Codex as always pushing the guaranteed win, always choosing the strategy with the 90% + success probability. I think the philosophy behind it is to win as safely and surely as possible, don't waste resources, don't gamble on risks. If there are two viable options choose the safest, simplest option with the least risk and most control. It may not be flashy, fast, or efficient, but it works reliably and consistently.

Guilliman isn't the best tactician or strategist, he is the greatest logistical and organizational mind ever. He see the big picture and plans for all eventualities. This is where the Ultramarines get their flexibility and renown for being the best. They can adapt and reorganize faster then anyone else, do to better distribution of troops across an area. They don't specialize and they don't get bogged down in something that isn't working.

@ Face Eater - Wasn't it Horus who said he thought the Lion was the greatest tactical mind and if it wasn't for the fact the Emperor found him first that the Lion should have been the Warmaster?

.