I still maintain that the fourth Squad Mode in that new Oath should have been 'Pick one'.

BYE

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well stated. And correct me if I'm wrong but is Ultramarine flair based on Ancient Rome and/or the Greek Spartans? Historically there was a lot of civic pride, er, arrogance exhibited by those cultures. For example the Spartans followed the legendary Laws of Lycurgus (the parallels with the Codex Astartes are very strong). Because of their institutional traditions, the Spartans and the Ultramarines were/are imbued with a sense of rightness and destiny. And historically there was a long-standing rivalry between Sparta and Athens. Each thought they were the "best" that Greece had to offer. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that different chapters believe in their home traditions and it's not a stretch to understand that this belief will come off to others as arrogance.

Enjoying the thread! Thanks!

Can an Ultramarine who acts less than excellent still use Lead By Example? Can a Black Templar who has doubts use Armour of Faith? Can a Lone Wolf use Pack Tactics? By RAW they probabky can - but should they be able to? Just like a Space Wolf who puts on his helmet can't use his senses, what should be the limits of some other powers? Or shouldn't there be any?

To me, Lead By Example is kinda like the Ultramarines' Smite (DnD Paladin power, not the psychic power). If they aren't able to lead by example for whatever reason, they can't use it.

I also hold that the "Honour the Codex" is spot on but has the focal point of it has eluded me for over a year. A Black Templar's Zealotry is easy to pinpoint - but under which circumstances would you consider triggering a broad thing like "Honour the Codex" appropriate? Honouring a treatise that covers each and every aspect of Astartes warfare? To me, "Honour the Codex" translates into hard, thorough work or: 'Professionalism'. That is the whole point of the Codex, isn't it? A more thorough and professional (scientifically systematic ) approach to warfare in order to lift (or at least maintain) the general level of capability of the Astartes. Given that the Ultras are the greatest chapter of them all (or at least one of them), it seems to have worked.

Also, I have to disagree with the core rulebook about the Ultramarines being everything what Astartes stand for for the common man. That role probably goes more to the Blood Angels who tie in better with the beliefs of the Ecclesiarchy. See 'Sanguinala'. Ultramarines are everything that Astartes stand for for the upper ranks of the Imperium who do understand a bit about the different chapters or their history. They probably also have acquired a superb reputation among the common soldiers. Still I think they are less prominent than Sanguinius and the Blood Angels.

Alex

The Wolf using his helm can't use is Solo Mode senses power...until he gets that helmet that lets him. I'd think the intent of the game is to be more inclusive than restrictive and not mechanically punish/limit characters for roleplaying unless the player takes a roleplaying option with extreme mechanical consequences such as Wolf Scout. Perhaps the BT has a crisis of faith...and by smiting a daemon with his Solo Mode his faith is rekindled stronger than ever. Or the bitter Ultramarine learns to lead with the personality he has rather than tring to develop a more "ideal" one. That kind of thing would be great and IMO a shame to disallow or restrict. Fluff should not generally dictate the effects/limitations/applicability of crunch.

Don't fix what's not broken. Not only it's a waste of effort, no one cares about the stupid opinions of a bunch of female space marines fans.

I don't get why Ultramarines are seen as 'Paladin' types, really. That should probably be Blood Angels, again, what with them being described in multiple sources as the most noble of Space Marines. That and the self-sacrifice and the need to fight against inner demons in order to maintain perfection (which often ends in a fall anyway). Add in the fact they're melee specialists and get angel wings...

Of course, if you want the intolerant smite 'em all brand of Paladin, there's always the Black Templars.

Read the entry of the Ultramarines in the rulebook. That sounds a lot like Paladin. It's also the commitment to excellence.

What is broken is the explanation/rationale for Lead By Example: I think they shouldn't inspire others by priding themselves among the most loyal and bravest Astartes. That tends to have on fellow gamers a more off-turning effect at least. I think Ultramarines players should actually have their PCs lead by example . That would be a great step towards dissolving the apparently wide-spread internet hatred which is apparently an indication that nothing is broken about the chapter and thus nothing needs to be fixed. :rollingeyes:

Alex

ak-73 said:

True, it's close, but not as close as others, such as the Blood Angels (and to a lesser extent the likes of the Salamanders). It says they are noble and virtuous, yes... but the Blood Angels are 'the most noble'. Add in the angelic imagery, the holy grails, and to an extent, even their constant battle against their baser urges...

I think some of the association with Paladins might be that Paladins are also widely hated on for certain traits when they are played incorrectly in certain games. So many players forget to play their crusading hero as a charismatic, likeable person, after all.

To be fair, this is more a matter of opinion and perception than anything.

As I said: imho, Blood Angels are the figure-heads for the common man. For the fighting man, Ultramarines are probably more impressive. Thus the bonuses of Favoured Son. I only wonder why there is no similar mechanic for Blood Angels?

Alex

Blood Angels got a new Oath in First Founding that helps this, actually.

Regarding the common man, though, it's all about the Salamanders and Space Wolves, as well as individuals like the Raven Guard's 3rd Company.

Good point regarding different sections of society there: I'd go a step further and say that it would be officers holding the Ultramarines in high regard, whereas the infantry probably appreciate the Space Wolves more, for instance, as a very rough generalisation.

bluntpencil2001 said:

Remember, though, we're not dealing with how we perceive them, knowing all we do about them. And a lot of this is about perceptions.

Space Wolves certainly act in a manner that supports the efforts of the common man... but the Space Wolves themselves cultivate the appearance of savages, and possess an inherently bestial nature - they are wolves in the forms of men. The Salamanders walk amongst the communities of their homeworld and devote themselves to the defence of others, but they're also cursed with an appearance that is frightening to those not of Nocturne, and the Promethean Cult actively encourages that its adherents be self-reliant - a Salamander needs not the strength of brotherhood or the support of companionship. Both are proud defenders of the common mass of humanity, but neither is particularly well-suited to personal interaction with those same people because of other factors.

By comparison, the Blood Angels are perfect, golden specimens of the post-human form, noble of aspect and deed, graceful in form, action and aesthetics, and self-sacrificing by nature, though this all often masks the everpresent fury that lurks within their souls. But the Blood Angels themselves isolate themselves from mankind - on their homeworld, they live apart from the populace, and it's become something of a standard trope for Blood Angels and their successors that they don't commonly fight closely alongside others, partly to hide evidence of their bloodlust and rage. They're the angelic ideal, viewed from afar.

Ultramarines move amongst the populace of the many worlds of Ultramar. Parts of the Fortress Monastery on Macragge are sites of pilgrimage for the populace, and many of the Ultramarines officers hold positions as rulers of part of Ultramar. Ultramarines deal with Imperial citizens routinely. They may not perhaps be as individually personable or gregarious as the get of Russ or the children of Vulkan, but neither are they monstrous in aspect. They lack the angelic mein of the sons of Sanguinius, but they also are not cursed by his rage and his death. The average Ultramarine appears as nothing more than a human elevated to posthumanity. Every citizen of Ultramar knows of the trials that are undertaken to be an Ultramarine, and it's a great honour to be able to justly claim that a member of your family or ancestry became an Ultramarine.

In essence, the Ultramarines are both more approachable than other Space Marines (lacking any particularly unsavoury elements to their appearance or demeanour that would frighten or discourage mortals) and more used to interacting with mortals than many Space Marines. That particular combination matters.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I think I stand corrected here, Nathan. Good points all.

Still, I'm going to say that Blood Angels are still the Paladin archetype. Ultramarines can be the jack-of-all-trades Bards or something.

The Blood Angels have a holy day dedicated to their primarch, Sanguinala. It's safe to say that among the Astartes chapters they are the most popular and well know among the general populace. Sanguinius, who sacrificed his life to quasi-protect the Emperor, has temples dedicated to him next to those dedicated to the Emperor.

Now I doubt it's the same among the military men and women.I refer you to the Favoured Son Solo Mode; the Blood Angels have nothing comparable, although they should probably. I think anyone who has any deeper knowledge about the Space Marines and their history or about military history or the history of the Imperium will understand the singular role of the Ultramarines.

Now the reputation of the Ultramarines would have not been able to be sustained if it was just based in legacy. It must be built on continous excellence. Otherwise one of the successor chapters might as well have become as the paragons.

Alex

bluntpencil2001 said:

Agreed on the good points. As for bards, I think the Blood Angels have that one covered too unfortunately as the officially described lovers of art and culture.

ak-73 said:

But well known doesn't mean anything in this instance - just because people know about the Blood Angels doesn't mean people know the Blood Angels themselves - while the deeds of their Primarch are well-known and universally revered, the Sons of Sanguinius themselves don't tend to mingle with the people - as I said, they're angels viewed from afar.

ak-73 said:

So the Ultramarines reputation can't be sustained based purely on legacy, but the Blood Angels' reputation can be? Because that's what it looks like you're saying here. Beyond that, even assuming that the Ultramarines reputation begins with the legacy of their Primarch, that doesn't mean that they haven't laboured, fought and bled across countless worlds over the ten thousand years since - every surviving Progenitor and Second Founding Chapter has. Indeed, given that their Primarch - whose stasis-entombed body is a site of pilgrimage for people all over Ultramar - was the one who wrote the Codex Astartes, and that the original version of the text still resides in their Librarium, and that they were the first to be organised according to its tenets and instructions, there's a distinct cultural requirement that they strive to embody its lessons to their fullest.

Beyond that, I wasn't discussing the merits of legacy in my last post; as I see it, the Ultramarines are far better-placed to interact with the populations of worlds across the Imperium than those of other Chapters - the other noted contenders, the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Blood Angels all having factors that makes them less-than-suitable in this regard (the Space Wolves' appearance of savagery and underlying feral nature, the Salamanders' tendencies towards solitude and self-reliance and unsettling appearance, and the Blood Angels' secret curse and the fact that they isolate themselves from others). The Ultramarines are used to interacting with a variety of human populations, and will work closely with existing Imperial forces where many other Chapters may be inclined to simply arrive, do the job and leave without a word (as the Dark Angels did during the early stages of the War on Vraks).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If you are accepting the premise of what I said earlier about the Blood Angels being at the forefront for the common man and the Ultramarines for the fighting people, then yes. The Blood Angels tend (note the term "tend") to be the shining examples throughout the Imperium due to both their legacy and their iconic appearance. For the purpose of imperial/ecclesiarchal propaganda they don't have to do anything other than be . Such is the fate of figure-heads for the uneducated masses.

The Ultramarines reputation in the military rests on something different: continued excellence. If they had 4 douchebags for chapter master in a row, their reputation would be pretty much shot in the knee after a millenium or so. And some other chapter would slowly become the paragons in the minds of the armed forces; the Ultramarines still being revered but more for deeds of the past than current accomplishment. Due to chapter masters like Calgar that hasn't happened at all. So the Ultramarines have both: legacy and continued excellence. Continued excellence above and beyond the normal call of duty for an Astartes which is already pretty steep.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

And yet they get a bonus with the Imperium's armed forces and not with Imperial Governors, Cardinals - nor with a Tech-Magos from Mars. Why is that? Because they continue to be able to "Lead by Example", being "Exemplars of Honour" - for all their accomplishments in empire-building, it even gets overshadowed by their military prowess.

Alex

PS The Ultramarines advances lack a bit the civilian component of their true range of skills, don't you think?

To be fair, the Blood Angels do get the inspiring example thing in First Founding, and it is based on their angelic appearance.

First) They get Oath of Hope, making troops nearby less likely to succumb to Fear. Perfect.

Second) Their Winged Jump Packs give them a bonus to Command. (As does one of their Trappings in the core book) Okay, they don't get access to Talented (Command), but with the use of the right equipment, and through looking like bloody Angels, they can near enough match the Ultramarines at inspiring leadership.

After Nathan's points, I'm quite happy to entirely switch sides on this debate, really, and now my main problem with Chapter stats is that Imperial Fists make the best Librarians. I'm cool with Ultramarines being very good Librarians, since they can get +5 WP, but I'd like to see other Chapters truly shining here, either through high Willpower or cool powers (Dark Angels powers seem good, for instance).

I'd lack to add in a Deed for the Raven Guard though, something like '3rd Company Veteran', a Raven Guard that formerly served under Kayvaan Shrike, and therefore changes his Chapter demeanour, and gets viewed as some sort of hero by the Guard.

bluntpencil2001 said:

The simple way for them to do that woudl not be to change the demeanor but just award them Peer (Imperial Guard) which is +10 to all Fel rolls, skills when dealing with the Imperial Guard. I might have given them "Veteran of Waagh Skullkrak" and gvie them Hatred (Orks) or +10 on all tactics rolls when dealing with Orks. I think deeds should be simple but award useful bonuses

I think that the Ultramarines' status as the greatest Chapter is pretty much all politics. Are they great , heroic, blah blah blah? Sure, just like other Chapters. I see it like this: Horus attacks Terra & Ultramarines are so far away that the war is over by the time they get home. The big "G" steps in & takes control for a bit, allowing the Imperium to survive & writing (and enforcing) the Codex Astartes. The Ultramarines are lauded as the greatest of heroes for saving the Imperium. Like eveything else in the stagnant Imperium, this has remained virtually unchanged. Politics. (Yes, this is very simplified. Condensed history, yum!) To me they're just a Chapter who wears blue & does everything "basic". As for the haters, I understand it. It's like Superman - all powerful & goody-goody, in a blue costume, with no character flaws. People don't like them because "perfect" people are boring and/or create resentment in the non-perfect because their own flaws are more apparent by comparison.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

And that is the point of this thread. Some people didn't understand this or post although they plain disagree, which has derailed the whole thing a bit.

I think the problem with Superman isn't being powerful or a good guy. I think it's the natural born winner aura that both he has as well as the Ultramarines in the minds of many gamers do. Thus my suggested remedy was to make the Ultramarines the hardest working Astartes in show-business. If you make the Ultramarines good because they are not ZOMG awesome but because they work day and night their rear end off beyond even what other chapters do, that makes it all explainable.

In particular, since all chapters are hard-working to the point where it's near impossible to surpass that, I would make the Ultramarines more systematic in perfecting their battle-prowess. It would portray them simply as the most thorough and all-compassing chapters of them all, constantly analyzing, studying, categorizing, revising without end.

Why would that make them more acceptable to gamers? It's because people do respect successful people if they know it's hard-earned and thus deserved .

The fluff text in the core rulebook actually already comes remarkably close to this slight reinterpretation of the chapter. It would just need to be made more explicit in order for gamers to get it. And of course it would require GW approval, the biggest obstacle. Doesn't stop any GM from "house ruling" it this way though.

Alex

The irony is that they don't even have a natural born winner aura in the texts, only with the players, since they're presented as useless arrogant douchebags most of the time. In the Ultramarines Omnibus, for instance, it's their fault a C'Tan awakens and gets out. Cato Sicarius is known for being pure arrogance. The marines in Ultramarines: The Terrible Movie totally fall into a Daemon's trap and get out thanks to luck. The dudes in Space Marine are either hidebound fools or arrogant fools that trust the very obviously evil Inquisitor.

They fail because they're morons. The other Chapters fail due to genetic defects or, occasionally, badassery and heroics gone too far.

Yes, I'm making sweeping generalisations, but, for the most part, the Ultramarines could be more interesting, whilst still remaining the go to 'baseline' Chapter. For instance, the Imperial Fists are also rigid adherents to the Codex in their formation and army compositions, but their character is very interesting (Also: Only extreme badasses wear yellow).

Edit:

I think the fact that they are 'all-rounders' is actually a slight problem, since, generally, in RPGs, tabletop battlegames, the key to winning/being effective is knowing what you're good at, and being really good at it, specialisation to the max. This of course, isn't realistic, or always fun, so making their jack-of-all-trades thing work needs some good rules to back it up.

I think making them masters of not only loads of different tactics, but a mixture thereof could work. For instance, instead of/as well as the Fellowship solo ability, give them an ability that lets them roll Scholastic Lore: Codex Astartes as well as Tactics: Whatever, letting them pick the better roll could be cool.

Maybe something in their background explaining how their Assault Marines work well in concert with Tactical Marines, who, being more experienced, help find targets for the Devastators, or something, showing how they mix up their squads and work well this way. Something to back this up in the rules would be nice. Maybe an Oath that gives bonus cohesion depending on how many different Specialities are present in the Kill-Team?

They need something that says 'We have a contingency ready for any eventuality.'

bluntpencil2001 said:

How about an Oath that provides four, instead of three, squad mode abilities, available to Squad Leaders who themselves have access to six inherently flexible and general purpose Chapter Squad Modes (Synchronised Assault alone is really, really useful, particularly at Rank 4 or higher) and a Solo Mode that gives them the potential for bonus re-rolls for having the right Tactics Skill at the right time while letting them treat all Tactics Skills as Basic Skills?

Because they have that.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Again, it seems that I'm wrong and it's simply ignorance that's making the Ultramarines look bad. Serves me right for posting when I'm tired and away from my books, I guess.

Might I ask which Oath it is? Is it from First Founding?

Yeah, it's in First Founding, and is reason 4,236 that First Founding is Christina-Hendricks-sexy.

Which is part of why I am delighted about First Founding. But honestly they don't need even that. Imperial Fists have set a precedence for a total bonus of +10 on a single characteristic. If we interpret the Ultramarines characteristic bonuses so that they can be stacked onto a single char. we have a degree of specialization that is good (even if doesn't make that much a difference in a number of cases). If we add Lead by Example on top of it, we have a PC that is quite capable at what he does: Assaults with AG+10 and LbE, LIbrarian with WP+10 and LbE, Techmarines with T+10 or Int+10 and LbE, and so on.

As for the new Solo/Squad Mode abilities, they would have to be thoroughly OP to beat a general bonus plus a re-roll each turn. Because Lead By Example makes everything else come with big opportunity costs, if for no other reason than players being mad at themselves for not using the ability when they would have needed a crucial re-roll. So everything else probably has to be quite good and situational at the same time.

A passive Solo Mode ability is something different, of course, that is quite useful. Cuts a bit into the Imperial Fists with their cheap tactics though.

And a special oath that grants 4 squad mode abilities is an awesome idea, as the chapter oaths are a great idea altogether.

Alex