After some thinking I have come to the conclusion that what is wrong about the Ultras is that
a) they come across as supposedly natural born winners which makes them unlikeable and
b) them being the template after which the others are cut makes them a bit bland.

So here's my idea on how to fix that:

Stop making them natural born winners who almost effortlessly accomplish fabulous deeds. They may be successful and can accumulate much further glory but when they do, make sure that it is always the result of hard work - and not because they are innately better than all others.

Yep, that's my solution. Strip the excessive bling off of the Ultras and simply turn them into the hardest working Astartes in war-business. When in Deathwatch RPG something goes down, the Ultramarines are supposed to be the most thorough planners, the ones best prepared, those who have their gear in the best of possible conditions - because they spend pain-staking hours to clean and triple-check everything to leave nothing to coincidence. They have the background facts checked, they have studied maps in detail. This is something that other Astartes also do but make Ultras go above and beyond the normal calls of duty there.

And make them efficient, make them always focussed on the objectives of the mission (or alternatively the higher goal the mission is serving).

I wouldn't make Ultras into glory-hounds. Quite to the contrary, I would make them not care about glory primarily, I would make them care about the mission and ironically it is their sucess in serving this way that then makes them accumulate glory on behalf of the chapter. They never lose sight of what really matters in the big picture.

And they rely on the book because it contains the sum of millenia of wisdom - tried, tested and proven over and over again. They rely on it because it is de facto the way to succeed - if you know how to apply the wisdom contained properly, which they do.

This interpretation of the Ultramarines is certainly more appealing in my book than what we find in the current Codex Space Marines or the Ultramarines movie. And it also seperates the Ultras from their successor chapters which generally have lost focus of the essential to one degree or another.

Alex

Certainly, yes.

As for Deathwatch, I'd probably alter their special abilities and stats.

I'd maybe give +5 Intelligence, +5 one other stat.

I'd remove the awesome leader thing they have going on, and maybe replace it with awesome strategist powers. Re-roll tactics or something.

It might clash with the cheap tactics spam of the Imperial Fists though. Not sure what I would do about Solo Mode myself. Favoured Son is not unrealistic but it plays a bit into the 'ZOMG! Ultramarines are teh best' hands. It's comes a bit across as popularity thing again and it's hard to seperate that from hard-earned respect.

Alex

The part from the core book that I read that seems to encapsulate what I *want* to view them as is "Noble and virtuous, self-sacrificing and stoic, and truthful and just in thought and deed." The Paladin's Paladin.

I will agree though that some of the wordings of their powers comes accross, as is said, as ZOMFG ULTRAS RULEZ! Favoured Son doesn't truly bother me *if it's RP'd out* by someone who fills the description above. Consider the friends, co-workers, managers, supervisors, sergeants and officers people have worked with in actual life, and pick the ones that people have an easy time dealing with. They tend to have some humility, confidence, work well with others, and try to be just in the application of whatever is happening. It could be just me though.

The problem I have is so far most people I have seen playing the Ultras play them like they're the coolest kid at school becuse their dad got them the sweetest shoes.

I agree with not playing up the glory hound aspect of it- it does seem to me as well that an Ultramarine would forgoe personal glory and instead seek to accomplish what needed to be accomplished, being the pneultimate lead by example. Though the Insanity still seems to fit, even with that. They toss the humility aside and look back at their history and think ULTRAS RULEZ!11.

ak-73 said:

The thing is, they aren't the most popular. You don't see the most popular Imperial Guard battle tank getting named the 'Roboute Guilliman', after all. Also, Blood Angels seem to fall into leadership positions just as easily as Ultramarines (Dante being given command at Armageddon over Calgar).

(I always see Blood Angels as the Paladin types, actually, when they aren't succumbing to Red Thirst).

I would say that the Ultramarines are tactically and strategically superior to the Fists, but the Fists are simply tougher and more dogged, and better in certain situations.

To be honest, I'd alter the Fists too, and give them +5 Toughness and +2 Wounds.

bluntpencil2001 said:

Here's a nice pre-RoB version for the Imperial Fists:

www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp

Overall probably superior to the official version. Personally I'd give the T+5, WP+5. Enduring in body and soul.

Alex

I don't think removing the "glory hounds" aspect of the Ultramarines is such a good idea. First, it differentiates them from Imperial Fists, who are otherwise quite similar. Second, it makes them more believable if they consciously work towards all the fame and splendors that the Imperium showers them with.

No, the Fists are different. They are driven by perefectionism, which is a self-issue. The Ultras in my interpretation don't allow issues of self or needing to be perfect to divert their attention. Nor are they incapable of admitting that their position is unmaintainable; they can adapt because they have the mission and efficiency on their mind first. Professionals through and through.

Alex

I was one of those who always disliked Ultramarines as well, until I had a realization that completely turned my opinion around.
See, people always point at three main characteristics of the Ultramarines, often cited as their bad sides: the lack of a clear tactical preference for a certain kind of war (i.e. stealthy RG, siege – Iron Fists, Assault Blood Angels, etc.), their adherence to the Codex Astartes, and their success.
The first is seens as a lack of flavor, the second as leading to tactical inflexibility, while the third smacks of favoritism.
But this is the important part: the first two are their strengths, and the third follows from them.
When the books say that Ultramarines are the most successful, it doesn’t mean that they always win. It doesn’t even mean that are the Chapter with the highest chances of winning any given battle. Because you don’t have to, to be the chapter with the highest ratio of wins to attempts.
There are innumerable possible tactics in any given war that can be used, each with a different chance of success. Now, if you have a situation where extreme mobility hit and run attacks have the highest chance of success, White Scars will probably the best choice to win this. If you need to break a siege, Iron Fists are the number one choice, and so on. Nearly every chapter has a specialty that they are best at.
But being best at one tactic doesn’t mean you are always the best for any given confrontation. In fact it can even be a weakness, as their preference for certain tactics means they will often choose to use their preferred one even if it is a subpar approach. The Raven Guard might try stealth when bold assault is required, Iron Fists might stand and fight when they should try a hit and run approach, and so on.
The Ultramarines don’t. When the books say that Ultramarines aren’t the best at any approach to war, it really means that they aren’t bad at any of them. No matter what tactic you chose, the Ultramarines will never be the best at it, but they will probably still be pretty good at it.
When the books say that Ultramarines adhere to the Codex, it doesn’t mean they are inflexible. It means they will never let preferences or likes get in the way of using the tactical approach with the highest chance of success. If Stealth is required, they will use it without hesitation and probably only the Raven Guard will more willing to use it. If it is required to stand and fight to the last drop of blood, it doesn’t matter what the individual Ultramarine would rather do, he will stand and fight. If Infiltration is required, there will be few other chapters as willing to hide their armours, capture a Chaos Rhino and drive into the enemy encampment without raising a weapon.

And this is what one has to understand about Ultramarines: their absolute ruthlessness towards their preferences and favourite tactics. If there is a tactic with the highest chance of success, an Ultramarine will use it and completely disregard what his individual likes and dislikes dictate. Their absolute tactical ruthlessness, coupled with being “good enough” at any given tactic is what makes them unique and the chapter with the highest average win/loss ratio. Sure, if you look at specific situations, there will always be a chapter who could have done it better, that is specialized in that kind of warfare. But Ultramarines will never be far behind, and they will always be willing to use what works best.
And normally, the Codex will be pretty accurate at describing what tactic would work best in any given situation.

Now, if you want Ultramarines characters to feel unique, emphasize this ruthlessnes. Most other chapters will balk at certain tactics, Ultramarines never do that.

Morangias said:

I get the impression that the Imperial Fists defining trait as Space Marines is their tenacity and toughness. Going by Codex: Space Marines, they aren't as tactically astute (or will stubbornly ignore a viable tactic, such as retreat) as other Marines (they lose Combat Tactics for Stubborn if you take their token HQ) as many other Chapters.

In contrast, the Ultramarines don't have a tenacity that is legendary (beyond 'regular' Space Marines). However, they do have a tactical flexibility and a working knowledge of the theory behind this. Their obsession with the Codex Astartes should be seen as a strength as well as a weakness... arrogance born of the fact that 95% of the time, on tactical and strategic matters, they are right , not simply arrogance 'because the book says so'.

So this is now taking typical anti-Ultramarine Internet Hate and trying to use it to 'fix' something that isn't broken?

Uh huh.

BYE

@Morangias: The problem with the glory-hound aspect is that it puts the non-broken Ultramarines perpetually close to arrogance. Most Astartes are glory-hounds more or less and if that is one of the defining traits of Ultramarines it puts them overboard. I don't think it's a good idea in any way, shape or form to make the flagship chapter of the flagship army a bunch of arrogant idiots. It makes them less popular and deservedly so.

H.B.M.C. said:

You didn't listen to what you were saying, right? We'll continue with this thread in the meantime.

H.B.M.C. said:

Your contribution to this thread wasn't constructive, thanks. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Alex

I am not sure why you want to fix things. I find that the Ultramarines have their distinctive features .

Are they arrogant? Off course they are. they are seen as the best of the best and that has seeped in. It makes them arrogant, but they are still seen as THE example of what a space marine should be. All others have their flaws or are derived from their stock. Off course that makes them arrogant. But from a role playing point of view I have no problems with that.

Natural born leaders? Yes. Ultramarines are trained to work with others. While Space Wolves, Imperial FIst and even Blood angels are focus on their own chapter the Ultramarines tend to work well with others. It makes them natural leaders. they know the strengths and weaknesses of others and are able to use them. The codex is a tome written by a tactical genius. So while they are sometimes seen as arrogant everyone listens when these guys speak.

From a roleplaying point of view I must agree that playing the other chapters seems more fun (each have their flaws), but actually they are easy to play. Playing an Ideal is far more challanging.

I do not think the Ultramarines need a fix. If you can combine the arrogance with the ability to be a leader you can play a good Ultramarine in my opinion.

Charmander said:

Charmander said:

Something along this lines. Players tend to think that if they're playing Ultramarines that they must be the boss or the leader of the group. Which is just fine, as it can create some interesting conflicts from a roleplay perspective. Somehow, playing them 'over the top' can be successful and is ok in certain situations. They are kind of glory hounds (maybe that was their name in Unification Wars), but it is not as important as the mission itself and I would argue that they are maybe ultimate arbitrators and peacekeepers amongst brothers to cool off and focus on objectives.

I had a player once who played an Ultramarine scout, or rather, a marine in scout armour, and he was declared leader for the mission. Which was kind of lame, as he was always in the trees or shadows sniping. But he was best with command and had greatest cohesion if they went to squad mode. And that was a powergaming point of their choice. But, on the other hand, he was quite ruthless and unforgiving, siding with some extreme solutions for people of a feral world where they had the mission plus he really detested unsanctioned psykers going to extreme length as to executing a ship member of a Rouge Trader just to demonstrate that you cannot take Imperium's laws for granted, summoning Inquisition later for inspection. So, I guess it depends mostly on player involved, as a friend of mine demonstrated. Noble and virtuous sometimes, if people abide to some 'civilization' principles implanted in his mind spending time on Maccrage.

Sorry if I derailed the topic.

Question: how do we reconcile the noble Paladin aspect then with the arrogance? Is the arrogance something that only afflicts individuals or a common theme throughout the chapter? Because that is how a number of internet people perceive the Ultras as.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I would say that arrogance is something the individual is struck with. Although it could be manifested more or less within the kill team, depends on the characters around him. Maybe he taught other chapters to work more closely together and form carefully planed actions thus removing the friction within different chapters and making himself a great leader (tactical genius). Or maybe he was already stubborn within the chapter, his company captain taught that they are Emperor's favored sons, giving more chapters than anyone else, having more victories to their name through teaching of the codex etc.

I mean, it could be like a dual personality thing, depending on set of circumstances around the battle-brother and his training. Good example is Leandros from the game Space Marine and his constant adhering to Codex, while Titus and Sidonis know that Codex can be interpreted differently to suit their current needs in a mission. It is in the first scene of a game. Arrogance is probably prevalent mostly in youth and dissipates with experience or becomes even more persistent because the battle brother had most of his victories through strict adhering to Codex Astartes. I guess if you talk to Tyrannic War Veteran and someone that was on Armageddon, then in Deathwatch, they would interpret things radically different although they are from the same gene-seed and chapter.

Internet people perceive things according to hate towards GW, I'm sure. Ultras are just fine and can be played equally interesting as any other chapter providing the player has the slightest imagination.

Part of the problem with their rules is that they get statistical bonuses to Fellowship dealings with other Imperial institutions, despite the fact that they always come across as arrogant bastards. That does not equate to a bonus in Fellowship, or make social dealings easier.

Each Chapter should get bonuses to their signature thing . Blood Angels' thing is jump pack assaults, elegant, but often frenzied. Black Templars have melee and intolerance. Raven Guard have stealth operations. White Scars have mobility.

The Ultramarines thing is tactics and the Codex. Their thing is not being masters of social skills, nor is it even being the best of inspirational leaders. Either through rigid adherence to the Codex, or through creative interpretation of it, the Ultramarines find victory. This should equate to a tactical bonus, not a social, or command bonus. As I've stated before, the Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both more suited to such roles, in spite of their flaws. The Ultramarines never struck me as super-personable or likeable, really. They're annoyingly pedantic and hidebound (admittedly for good reason), only their very best throwing this stigma off and creatively interpreting the Codex (Cato Sicarius for example, but he tends too much in the other direction). Even Marneus Calgar, their greatest leader since Guilliman, hands over the reins of poewr to Dante of the Blood Angels at Armageddon, after all (I know, I come back to this a lot, but for good reason.).

Giving them tactical bonuses (First Founding adds this in, actually, a great decision) makes more sense. Imperial Fists need changed too, to be fair, they are too tactical, too leadership orientated, when they should be simply rock hard and god-**** tenacious. Ultramarines should be tactically flexible strategic geniuses. (+5 Int, +5 one other stat, bonuses to Tactics, relevant skills and talents).

Quick question, and somewhat relevant to the topic since the view seems to be that UMs become tactical masters due to their obsession with the Codex: what do you usually use Tactics tests for? Do you as GMs ever call for them? When players what to use them, what bonuses if any do they give? They seem to be pretty open-ended, which is nice, but building a Chapter around Tactics tests means that it's be nice to have some guidance on how the skill is mechanically useful.

bluntpencil2001 said:

Yeah but the tactically flexible due to being able to freely assign bonuses and -let's not forget- Lead By Example. It makes Ultras really good. And actually it makes Ultras so good that DW needs a rule that governs their successor chapters because normally they should not be on par with the Ultramarines. In fact their successors from RoB are all "better" than them. Granted only a very minor issue but still.

Let's bring some structure back to the debate, shall we? If we are to reconcile their noble nature with their arrogance, it has been suggested that the hybris is more a personal thing. I agree with that because the point of this thread is to do away with the chapter overall coming across as insufferable, arrogant bastards (and the Codex Pictures movie hasn't helped in that regard). If we can agree that to make the chapter more likeable we have to make the arrogance a personal thing, then restricting it to Primarch's cuse or Personal Demeanour makes sense. A down-looking Ultramarine then would be bound to be criticized by his peers for letting his ego get in the way of the mission.

I don't think that the Ultras are the master strategists per se either. They are certainly great strategists; but my idea is that to be the "greatest" chapter, they have to be consummate professionals in everything they do.

When DW came out, some poster here complained about the Ultras getting bad solo/squad mode abilities. While Favoured Son isn't the best and Rallying Cry is useful but nothing to go ZOMG!, I have to say that Lead by Example is incredibly good. It's totally awesome, it and the free choice of characterstic buffs are 90% of what makes Ultras Ultras in DW (mechanically speaking). It's so awesome that successor chapters should have a weakened version.

Here's my problem: it's okay if they have such awesomeness to them but the players don't have anything to do for it and more importantly it comes across as if the PC has nothing to do for it. Yes, I am aware that it can be said about the abilities of other chapters too, etc. But it ties in to what I originally said: the Ultramarines mustn't come off as being naturally better. It must be clear that if they are better at something, then only because of dedication, hard work and professionalism.

To me that's the way to make them likeable. But what can that mean for DW? Be more demanding of Ultramarine players? I mean, if they are the Paladin's Paladins, that's some pretty high standard to live up to. Can they "Lead By Example" if they don't (if the players are not putting extra effort into it)? A Paladin in DnD must live up to its strict moral code, I think the Ultras should have a rule that stipulates if they fail to live up to certain standards than they lose their special powers (solo/squad mode) too.

tl:dr = the abilities of Ultras in DW are just fine, the problem is that they tie in to their "natural born winner" flair which makes them unlikeable to a number of people and which isn't a wise design (or just vibe) for the flagship chapter. Holding players to some kind of "Paladin"-style standards might help fix that.

Alex

While for the most part I do agree that the most personable Ultramarines were Uriel Ventris and his Captain Lucius Ideaus both did not stick completely to the Codex, they both seemed to understand that they were still humans and that the Codex while did guide them to victory time and again, sometimes they needed to break with it.

As I play an Ultramarine Tactaical Marine, with a Blood Angel Librarian, Space Wolf Assault Marine, Space Wolf Techmarine, and a Storm Warden Apothecary. It sometimes falls to me to deal with the non-Astartes NPCs. Looking at the role that the Ultramarines play in the TT game, which is the most new gamer friendly Space Marine army, it would reason to say that they would have the most range of Character archetypes, all of them however would value the Codex Astartes as the greatest tool in the kit, besides their brains.

Remember the best weapon that ANY marine has is his brain. The adherence to the Codex Astartes allows the Ultramarines to have a lot of planning done before they even step out of training. while +5 to any two stats is awesome, it is not broken in anyway, it more goes to the you can find any kind of Marine that you want to play within the Ultramarine, if you want someone who is really good at command, you put the +5 into fellowship and then something else, or if you want someone good at melee fighting then put +5 into weapon skill.

It seems that a lot of people forget that the Ultramarines are just good at doing everything, while another Chapter, say the Blood Angels are specialized in fast assault, so it would go to reason that they would get bonuses to those stats when it comes to character generation, while the Ultramarines would have more vanilla stat bonues.

Also remember that people are people, while some Ultramarines would be "I am superior to you" attitude towards other Chapters and the Imperium as a whole, they would also have some of the "I am not superior to you, but I am also not your equal." while you do find in the writting that the Ultramarines seem to have more of the former and few of the latter, they do happen.

ak-73 said:

Any more constructive than 'Ultramarines are boring!!!' , the catch cry of a million /tg/'ers the world over?

I got a better idea: If you think they're boring, then don't play them. I don't find Blood Angels to be all that interesting, but I don't start threads insisting that we need to 'fix' something that is nothing but my own personal perception.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Yes, why should we ever try to make boring things interesting? That way can only lie madness.

H.B.M.C. said:

Then you probably should. The result might be awesome for you and anyone else who thinks Blood Angels suck.

Still, the House Rules subforum is probably a better place for such threads than the general one.

bluntpencil2001 said:

This was very much the intent - the Oath of Duty and the squad and solo modes I gave the Ultramarines were all intended to reflect the concept of being extremely skilled tacticians, having ten thousand years of accumulated lore from hundreds or thousands of genius tacticians and master strategists to rely on. Student of the Codex gives them a greater benefit from buying up a load of Tactics skills, and ensures that the character is never unable to make a Tactics Test for a given situation. The Oath of Duty is out-and-out versatility, providing an Ultramarines squad leader with the broadest choice of possible Squad Modes (indeed, an Ultramarines Tactical Marine with Tactical Expertise using the Oath of Duty brings a total of 10 squad modes to the Kill-Team, giving them the greatest number of options when it comes to facing a given situation). The new Squad Modes are all about adapting to a situation - attack patterns that reward concentration of fire, and which allow the Kill-Team to set their own initiative order (at higher ranks, resetting it every turn), and defensive patterns that allow them to withdraw en-mass in the face of an enemy attack to leave that foe exposed to heavy fire, and which give them an selection of bonuses that can be switched between during the battle.

Well, Nathan, that sounds all very good and solid. I think most of the crunch you write is pretty good. That said, I would like to continue with my train of thought and ask the question:

1. Is there a downside to being an Ultramarine? Being a member of the "greatest chapter of them all"? Where are the burdens of responsibility?

Which brings me back to the Paladin's Paladin thing that Charmander so aptly phrased. Paladins are perceives noble. My impression is not that the same gamers who find Paladins in D&D appealing are especially drawn towards playing Ultramarines. And that has something to do with common perception (whether right or wrong) of the Ultramarines. Certainly various "haters gonna hate" images didn't help in that regard. Certainly the latest vanilla codex didn't help either.

A follow up question is:

2. Why are the Ultramarines such a great chapter?

Is it because they are just good? (That explanation would turn people off.) Is it because of a book? (If so, what magic does this book contain that lifts the Ultramarines beyond other chapters who are also experts at warfare in their own right.) Is it only tactical flexibility? (That would mean the other chapters are rigid and inflexible and that would make them appear to be somewhat incompetent in strategical matters.)

And finally:

3. If the Ultramarines are such a great chapter, what elevates them above their successor chapters?

Question here: do the new squad/solo mode abilities transfer onto later chapters or are they 1st founding only? Because I think later chapters should all have unique traits. Tactical flexibility all good and fine but perhaps Lead By Example is less a Black Consuls and more an Ultramarine-only thing. Just a thought for the future direction of the system.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Fundamentally, an Ultramarine is a jack-of-all-trades. Ultramarines are expected to be able to face any threat and overcome any challenge.

But it leaves them unspecialised - through the necessity of being able to put the right tool in the right place at the right time (at its heart, the strategic and tactical mastery exemplified by the Codex Astartes), they don't master those tools to the same degrees - as good as the Ultramarines are, they lack the capacity to specialise to the same degree as everyone else. You'll never see an Ultramarine force perform a shock assault as effectively as an equivalent Blood Angels force. A good example of this is in The Chapter's Due, where we see the legendary capabilities of Scout Sergeant Torias Telion, moving without being observed by his battle-brothers... and later witness an allied force of Raven Guard achieve even more astounding feats of stealth while wearing jump packs and wearing full power armour. Telion's the best stealth and guerilla warfare expert the Ultramarines have... and the Raven Guard are flat out better than he is. With a lot of Chapters, it's a variance of focus and specialisation that sets them apart from the Ultramarines - there are things that they do better, but they lose something in specialisation because of a change of focus.

As I view it, Ultramarines are the "greatest chapter of them all" primarily because the standard by which Astartes Chapters are typically measured are measured is the Codex Astartes (because the contemporary form of Chapters is defined within the Codex Astartes), and the Ultramarines naturally exemplify the virtues described within because it was written with the virtues prized within Ultramar in mind (in essence, the Ultramarines already fit Guilliman's vision of an ideal Space Marine fighting force before he wrote the Codex, because that's what he'd moulded them into in the first place - the other First Founding Legions fall short of Guilliman's ideal vision because they were shaped by minds other than his, which had different ideas as to what was ideal).

It's all a matter of degrees anyway - every Chapter inevitably has some capability to fulfil all the logical strategic and tactical roles required by the Codex Astartes, because codex-adherent or not, the leaders of those Chapters are not stupid, and they understand the necessities of warfare. But they still have favoured strategies and tactics, and cultural preferences that shape how they interact with the way a war needs to be fought, where an Ultramarine's tactical appraisal of a situation is unbiased towards or against any particular techniques because that's how he was trained.

As for arrogance... I think it's part of the package. All Space Marines are, to some degree or another - it comes with the pride and confidence that a Space Marine needs to function effectively. To most mortals, that arrogance is ignored, because it can be viewed as justified - you don't criticise a god of war of being arrogant, because he probably can do the things he claims. To other Astartes, that arrogance is natural - every Space Marine believes that his Chapter's traditions create the finest warriors, and it is natural to take pride in those ancient and mighty traditions. The Ultramarines get the edge here because their traditions and doctrines help define the majority of all Space Marine Chapters - their unassailable belief in the rightness of their traditions and doctrines is something that a codex-adherent Chapter will inherently struggle to argue with (you can't criticise someone else's traditional combat doctrine when 90% of your combat doctrine comes from them).