..when done through the normal mechanic (at the very start of the phase), should this be treated as a Player Action or a Framework Action?

dh098017 said:

I'd venture to say Framework, but is it really all that important? Very few cards reference player actions and none reference framework actions in general. The rules for Shadows are fairly clear as to how they work regarding timing and their place in the phase flowcharts, so in this case the nomenclature seems arbitrary.

Edit: That said I can see how it would affect order-determination of responses to bringing a card out of shadows. Sadly there is no good way bar direct ruling to determine if Shadows is a player action or framework as, based on the FAQ, both can be a choice; declaring a challenge is a framework action which you can choose to do so long as you have challenges left to declare, just as marshalling cards is a player action which you can choose to do so long as you can afford the gold cost. My gut still says framework because while all player action windows bar the marshalling window allow for any player to take any action so long as it is the correct phase, the only action you can take when playing Shadows is playing Shadows, so it more closely resembles the declaring of a challenge in that you can choose whether or not you want to do it, but you couldn't decide to initiate some other action instead.

The FAQ states If the response is to a player action, the player to the left of the person who initiated the action has the first opportunity to respond. Response opportunity then passes clockwise around the table. Note that responses to bringing a card out of Shadows are handled in this fashion, with the player to the left of the person who brought a card out of Shadows having the first response opportunity. So its a player action.

Staton said:

Interesting, but your response is a little misleading. The FAQ doesn't specifically state that it's a player action, only that responses are handled as if they were a player action. I think that that ruling pretty much renders any question of Shadows being a player or a framework action moot.

Yes thank you. So while it looks, smells, and acts like a duck, even though it may not be a duck, for all purposes, we may treat it like a duck

Yeah the actual Shadows window isn't a player action window. Otherwise you could use any player action.

dh098017 said:

Circadia said:

...quack...

It's not a duck. It's a platypus.

Bringing a card out of Shadows by the normal, beginning-of-phase mechanic is something of a hybrid that is not defined in the basic timing structure of the game. It's exceptions are defined in the Shadows rules themselves.

Each player has one, and only one, chance to bring a card out of Shadows at the beginning of each phase. They get this chance whether they want it or not, whether they have cards in Shadows or not, etc. So it works like a framework event (like drawing cards or awarding Dominance) in this regard.

If the player does bring a card out of Shadows, all Responses to bringing that card out of Shadows must be played before any other card can be brought out of Shadows. So in that regard, it works like an individual player (or framework) action window.

That's how the Shadows rules tells us to handle it. This obviously does not fit into the basic timing windows of the game. It is a special working of the timing rules applicable to this one mechanic.