Since Librarians are anathema to Black Templars, how do you handle them being together on the same Kill-Team?

Eradico Pravus said:

There's not one way, it depends on the personal demeanours and character of the brothers involved. One thing is for sure: the BT is aware of the nature of the job and he knows that the librarian mustn't come to harm unless he turns into a daemon vessel.

Alex

First: The BTs may not care for psykers, but Librarians are still Astartes.

Second: BTs still need to use Psykers (navigators and astropaths) to get around in those big star ships of theirs and communicate, so they aren't total anathema to the BTs. But, it's fair to say that the BT would be quick to pull the trigger should the Librarian show signs of possession.

Third: I have a hard time with any notion that the Deathwatch would accept any brother who couldn't work with other chapters. A chapter with known distaste for Psykers would probably have its Brothers screened very, very carefully before accepting those brothers into a role that would have them working with Psykers.

All that said, I believe the relationship between the two should initially be a bit cool. It may warm up either in a positive or negative way as time goes on. But, I would also make sure that the PLAYERS involved cooperate to tell the story of any rivalry. If the Librarian player isn't ok with the idea of rivalry, I would just let it go at a comment now and again to remind everyone you don't like psykers, but leave any in-game effect out of the picture.

I don't believe two players should establish an in game rivalry between their characters unless they have an out-of-game agreement to do so. Period.

Things like backgrounds, demeanors, alignments, whatever are all role playing tools. They should not be used as an excuse to make the game un-fun for other players. If you have a character that would be at-odds with another, you should always be sure that you keep it in check and keep a very close pulse on the other PLAYER's mood. If it's becoming more than a friendly competition, it's just better to drop the detail. I've seen too many cases across various RPGs and gaming groups where player A decided their character had some problem with Player B's character and turn it into a situation where one of them felt compelled to leave the group.

CorpseGod said:

The book goes into a this briefly, describing that those Templars selected to work with the Deathwatch are screened for their capability to work with other chapters and other specialties. Being kicked out of the DW is pretty dishonorable, so they're not expecially casual in who they send; you can bet that being much more than snide to the Librarians of the Watch s going to get you in hot water sooner or later.

All in all though I agree, make sure that both of the players are cool with any competition that brews between two characters ahead of time.

I leave it as a chance for good roleplay. The BT might refer to the Librarian as "Brother Witch," for example. Hatred of psykers is deeply ingrained in the Chapter culture and they only use Astropaths/Navigators because there are literally no other long-range-communication or FTL options for Imperials.

I wouldn't bust a BT PC who was exceptionally nasty to a Librarian PC, as long as the Librarian's player knew that the BT was playing to his Chapter and could have fun with it too. But a BT is not going to attack a loyalist Librarian unless the Librarian is obviously possessed by a minion of Chaos or something. Or something occurs to make loyalists come to blows, of course.

CorpseGod had a lot of good points on the subject as well. Two people might have a lot of fun playing up antagonism between BT/Librarian or White Scars/Raven Guard or Space Wolves/Dark Angels, but they have to both be okay with the ribbing and potential insults. These rivalries exist for very good fluff reasons. But if one player is having fun by playing his Chapter to an extreme and the subject of his rivalry is not enjoying it, yeah, it's time to have an OOC chat and set the boundaries.

Great replies everybody, thanks!

ak-73, I love the idea that it would be the Templars job to be overly protective of the Librarian. Almost the exact opposite of what I would expect!

And CorpseGod, great point about Navigators and such. I should have been more specific and said that unleashing Psykers *in combat* is anathema to Black Templar doctrine, or at least considered reckless at best.

And all of you are right about the role-playing opportunities. For my Black Templar Techmarine I created the following backstory: he was part of the Declates Crusade and fought alongside an Imperial Fist Librarian. Thus he became acclimated to such a situation in the past. When commissioned to Deathwatch my Marine was cautioned (and even charged!) to keep an eye on the Librarian for signs of corruption/possession. So allegedly I carry a bolt round with the Librarian's name on it.

It's been fun relating my Black Templar Techmarine with our Kill-Team's Dark Angel Librarian, especially when the Librarian saves his butt in combat and shatters any pre-conceived ideas he might have! Strangely enough the two have even formed an alliance of sorts since there has been Inquisitorial persecution of our Kill-Team's performance and criticism of my Tech-Marines's faith in the Omnissiah. Fortunately the person playing the Librarian has been a very good sport as well.

I'm wondering if my GM will create a situation in the future where my character will face criticism from other Templars for being "soft" on the Librarian.

Again, great replies! Very helpful!

My group has a Space Wolf Rune Priest, a Dark Angels Librarian, and one very unhappy Black Templar Apothecary. Who carries a clip of Witch Rounds. You know, just in case.

I've enjoyed the roleplaying going on between these three. The Dark Angel and Space Wolf obviously formed an immediate rivalry, while the Black Templar despises both. He visibly strokes his blade every time Psychic Phenomenon manifest, and the less said about Perils, the better. The Black Templar and Space Wolf even fought a duel at one point (the Templar won).

As long as the players are cool with it, there's tons of potential for great roleplaying.

PrinceOfMadness said:

Agreed with the earlier posters. Just to share I heard the story from a local DW group of players has a BT and two other librarians (though not SW or DA). The players decided that since they were seconded to the DW, that each individual is recognised for their abilities and surely that meant plenty of screening by the DW.

The BT would be wary and kept one eye on the enemy and another on the librarian. Initially he showed extreme distrust of the libby. After a few missions later he sorta accepted the libby and became more prayerful like "Oh God (Emperor), suffer me not the wiles of the witch but if it is your will, let me bear this burden with honour".

When the Libby hauled the BT out from incoming enemy shelling, distrust became a sort of reluctant acceptance. It became one eye on the enemy and one eye out for the back of a kill team member,

As much as it goes, I do not foresee the BT going anywhere along the lines of "Emperor bless your soul brother libby" but more of the tough mutual respect between marines. Something along the lines of "Just so you know, if you ever turn to the warp, I'll still be the first to end your miserable existence". Maybe something between Zek Tsu'gan and Hazon Dak'ir of the Salamanders.

It may not be the way you intend to rp between your team member though.

On the flip side though, if a Librarian conducts himself well, I think the BT could actually end up moving beyond grudging acceptance and on to actually liking them.

The focus on the anti-psyker part is certainly not without validation, but there's more to the BT than their zealousness (I don't even think they view the Emperor as a God, like some people often assume... but we won't know more about that until the HH series gives us more on the Imperial Fists). These are the guys who gave us the quote, " Your Honour is your Life. Let none dispute it. "

They are hung up on honour in a pretty extreme way, even for a Space Marine, and a Battle-Brother who acts as such, and displays martial competance, is probably going to earn their respect whether they're cursed as a witch or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer calls psykers, in addition to foul witches, "weapons of the Emperor". I don't think that Templar hate psykers right on the spot, but rather they hate WITCHES, people who use their powers for perverse agendas. In my group, the Templar treats our Librarian as a powerful ally, but also fears his potential and tends to avoid directly interacting with him, lest some dark agenda captures him.

The Emperor didn't allow Astartes psykers though, iirc.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I thought the whole point of Nikea was banning Astartes sorcerers , and the big issue with Magnus was that he also practiced sorcery. I admit I could be wrong though.

But even if the Emperor didn't want any Astartes psykers, the Codex Astartes provides for a Librarium. Of course the BTs, being Fists successors, have certain choice words for Gulliman's reorganization scheme (even if the Fists themselves and their other successors are actually Codex-compliant).

From lexicanum.com:

Ultimately, in what would become known as the Edict of Nikaea, the Emperor decreed that the Legions would disband their Librarius Departments, and all Librarians would return to the battle companies and never employ their psychic powers. He believed that men were incapable of using the warp while not succumbing to its "darker temptations". He did however sanction the use of Astropaths and Navigators as without them the Imperium would be impossible to rule over. He also gave one final warning:

"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."

Despite the Emperor's decision, in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy enforcement of Nikea ceased. By M41, the choice of whether to have Librarians was left to individual chapters. The Salamanders explained to the Marines Malevolent that they felt Nikea was outdated.

Alex

Well lets face it: The Emporer did make a couple of stupid decisions in his time. Which in essence is a good thing. We wouldnt have such a cool story otherwise.

Pallomides said:

More like he made a *********** after another.

You go and tell that a Black Templar. Dorn made the Emperor at the center of his marines' thinking, so you can imagine what a BT thinks about Nikea being obsolete or not - or about marines who declare Nikea obsolete.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Thanks. I do imagine the Codex providing for a Librarium helped change that belief for the Codex-compliant group, though. Certainly most Chapters have had Librariums since long before M41. Even the Space Wolves, who were sent to capture/kill Magnus for using psy/sorcery, have maintained their Rune Priest tradition for a very, very long time.

We have a large Kill Team that's been playing for just over 12 months.

We had this situation and the characters in question are a Black Templar Tactical Marine, Dark Angel Librarian and a Black Templar Techmarine (played by myself). We also have a Space Wolf Tactical Marine who fought the DA Librarian in our very first session in a duel. The SW won however the DA insists that it was a bad call and the rules regarding the duel weren't applied correctly. The BT's immediately supported the SW leading to a bit of bitterness right off the bat.

We have had a very cool relationship until recently. Our Librarian mainly focuses on divination and our GM has had slow progression of the powers coming through with agreement of all players involved in the game and he limits his use of psychic powers as he knows it upsets some of the Kill Team. However the player has still been unlucky with two rolls on psychic table leading to perils. The most recent was a full blown Daemon Prince appearing bent on destroying the Librarian. Leading with initiative the BT's and our Storm Warden Assault marine charged in. My techmarine has been built essentially as a damage soak but even the blow that thundered down on him led to low level crit damage. However using BT specials and and the very nasty Storm Warden Assault marine we managed to deal with the enemy.

With the BT's skill at combating such creatures and their special training to deal with them they acted without really thinking at the time why it appeared or how. After a few sessions the truth of what occurred came out.

Roleplay later led my techmarine (who is quite old) to eventually view the Librarians powers as something similar to a plasma weapon. There is a chance that such weapons can overheat. But the choice to use this weapon is a calculated risk. Knowing such a weapon like a tech marine does it was easy for him to come up with an analogy on why he needs to know and understand the risks involved with the Librarians unique abilities and talents.

It's taken us 12 months of roleplay for this epiphany to come about and the younger BT still has his prejudices. My BT recently decided he did not desire to return to the BT and instead stay and serve in the Deathwatch as a Forge master. he has also come closer to his kill team and understands that each different chapter type brings a unique set of skills and abilities to the table. It's been a long road but he now proudly wears a DW tabard instead of his BT one.

As some here have said it can be done well with good roleplay and making sure your friends at the table know what is happening and are happy to see the story through to a logical conclusion, whatever that may be. We had a session last night that was mainly based around roleplay and the DA Librarian was speechless when my marine came to him and said he wanted to know the risks so he could better be prepared to keep all members of the Kill Team safe.

I guess the story if done right can be one that is rich and rewarding for all involved as long as it's played out in a mature fashion. Now I just need to deal with the young hubristic tactical marine who thinks Solomon has betrayed his chapter and turned his back on an illustrious history. It's a work in progress but we'll get there.

I say allow them the conflict. Make sure it is character building for all involved and give them the leeway to explore all dimensions of their characters and chapters.

Kind Reagrds,

Adam.