There are certain career and action combos in this game that cause breakage. The Swordmaster all-twinked-out, the Trollslayer's Trollfeller Strike/reckless cleave/etc..and then there's the Ironbreaker...

I took a hiatus from GMing to play in my friend's Blackfire Pass campaign. We all knew it, but I wanted to see it for myself: The completely and totally broken ironbreaker WITHOUT min-maxing.

You can't touch me with disease (dwarf bonus), insanity (high willpower), corruption (dwarf's virtually unaffected), wounds and critical wounds. I calculated, with my wound threshold and wound advances, it would have taken my GM's Druchii EIGHTEEN TURNS to drop my character. If he would have increased the number of Druchii, it would have only made the other characters suffer and I still would have been untouched - until the TPKEI (total party kill except Ironbreaker).

This career is completely and horrendously broken with the high armor combined with the other dwarf abilities. I didn't even max him out and he's broken. I can't imagine a TOU of 6 or some other terrible combo. I gave him improved block and some dumb talent. For offense: otherwise I gave him shield-bash-like action cards (slam, bind, the omens of war enhance, etc. which don't affect defense). Had I min-maxed his offense

..and he's only got a Toughness of 5, str 4, WP 4 at 15 advances.

This career needs some serious Nerfing.

Jay H

P.s. and I found an Errata in the Lure of Power. Perfect strike only has chaos-requirements on one side. Is it meant to be all chaos/no chaos/or a combo?

I do not agree Jay too much.

Ironbreakers are made for what they are made, which is combat. You as an Ironbreaker must take the load of the fight together with any other warrior in the party, while the rest of the players does support /ranged actions.

In my games there is no problem with high To high Soak characters, but on the other hand I have to say that most of the enemies I throw to my party are enhanced.

-I play without the henchemen rule unless the fight is really large, above 15 or so enemies.

-My bad guys suffer fatigue and stress, they do not suffer wounds from it.

-They carry weapons with their own DR and CR, two-handed, halberds, shields, spears, what ever I want.

-I give my enemies some real action cards like Double strike, Reckless cleave, Sniper shot or Rapid Fire and not the crapy ones they have by default.

-I have buff up some enemies. For example, I set the wound threshold of many creatures back to the 2nd ed levels, so no more Trolls with a pathetic 18 wounds threshold, in my games Trolls have 32 wounds. Another example are Chaos warrior and Chaos sorcerers, who wear Chaos armour, so no more soak 3 or 1 but soak 5 (or 6 with shield). These are just some examples.

Of course this makes the combats in my games way more deadly, but they are also more tactical and all my players can find a spot on what to do; while the Knight charges against the enemies, the thief plays support cards to help in the combat or takes down the weakest ones. All players, even the Ironbreaker or the Knight with his horse and his plate armour feel most of the times the deadly combats can be.

All these house rules I have made are not to give sense to "broken" characters like Ironbreakers, Swordmasters, Bright Wizards, Knights etc. But to really give my players a sense that combats are dangerous. My players knows that he can beat up most of the militia, soldiers and thugs; but they also knows that when he goes out of the safety offered from Imperial cities and villages, even one (ok! maybe two) Gors, armed with two handed weapons or similar will put the mighty ironbreaker in a real hazard.

To finish let me tell you that I also agree with you, if you take the game as it is, with the bad guys dealing default damage and having default actions, then yes! Ironbreakers are broken, but from my point of view enemis are also broken. Come one! Look at the default statistics of a Soldier St 3 DR 4 and Wounds 15 and look that of a Troll St 7 DR 5 Wounds 18. Appart from the St rating which is good, the DR and Wounds does not reflect that of a 10 feet tall monster!

I hope you enjoyed my opinion ;p

It really isn't much worse than any other combat class. Your career ability is your armor. Granted, it is nice armor. The rest, however, all apply to a dwarf.

Use the same stats and have a dwarf mercenary wearing any sort of metal armor (up to full plate) and its about the same.

There are ways to deal with an IB. Yes, the GM does need to be aware and take steps, and adjust to a group that includes an IB. Then again, the GM should always adjust everything based on the group composition IMO.

There are several options for dealing with an IB:

1 - Ignore him and go after the other PCs. The IB, in general, isn't a powerhouse in the damage department, as most IB players concentrate on beefing up their defense. NPCs could be aware of what a tough nut to crack the IB is, and go after the squisy wizard/scribe instead.

2 - Numbers. No matter how much armor or toughness the IB has, he takes at least 1 Wound for each hit. Instead of attacking the IB with a single foe, attack him with more... like 6 foes. While a moderately tough foe, like an Orc, might do 2 wounds. 6 snotlings all hitting will do 6 wounds, besides adding the ignominy of getting beaten up by snotlings of course.

3- Make use of Action cards, especially those that inflict conditions or ignore armor. Give those goblins Troll-Feller strike, and have them use it on the IB, for example. Or, knock the IB down. Blind him. Use actions that inflict stress or fatigue instead of trying to do damage.

4 - Use with #3 above. Unconsciousness due to Stress and/or fatigue might be easier to achieve than wounding, in some cases. Use it if you can. If nothing else, Strained gives a temporary insanity, for example, in addition to penalities to the appropriate characteristic tests.

5- Armor. Make sure to keep track of it, and provide situations where armor is a hinderance. Boats and water, for example. Keep in mind that armor must be worn, and that PCs cannot get restful sleep while in armor. Either the IB takes his armor off to sleep, or you start giving misfortune dice and disallow healing tests for resting. If the IB gets attacked at night, he won't have the benefit of his armor. You can make the armor as much of a burden as it is a benefit if you want. You could also introduce some sort of armor damage house rule, which would also deplete the IBs funds as he keeps his armor in top shape.

I am sure there are more options, but these are just a few I've used. My favorite is #2. I usually add a number of smaller enemies to encounters, and make sure to swarm the IB. Then, the rest of the enemies attack the other PCs. I also usually throw in #3 too, and use action cards that either ignore armor and/or inflict alternate conditions/effects rather than trying to rely on pure damage.

This is only a problem if the challenge in your game is "can you kill these things." There is a whole world of other challenges in roleplaying where armor is no help.

Sorry dudes. The GM shouldn't have to break the rest of the game just to go after the Ironbreaker. The Ironbreaker is just plain broken.

..and I'm playing one. Bu ha ha ha ha! Bu ha ha ha ha!

Wait until I twink him out...

The goblins could use an action card called, "Can Opener" though

jh

I played the Sigmarite Discipile described in the combat above.

Yepesnopes said:

I stayed back from the main combat, attempting to support with prayers but got pelted with arrows. Unfortunately, did not have much cover and there were multiple archers.

dvang said:

Believe me there were *plenty* of enemies attacking us. The Ironbreaker was attacked much more than our Grudgebearer but even then our party was taking serious injury. The GM even used a "suck life force" spell (sorry, don't know the name of it) against the Ironbreaker even though my priest should have been the target (I had just hit the sorceress with Twin-Tailed Comet).

My priest was down to zero wounds and was flanked while the Ironbreaker was slowly (and I mean slowly) being plinked for 1 wound per hit by numerous foe.

I feel like I have a pretty beefed up Sigmarite (15 xp total, able to take weapons skill per Signs of Faith optional rules) but I cannot keep up with the Ironbreaker ("imperviousness") and the Slayer character (who by simply blinking causes 17 wounds).

Pardon my hyperbole.

Putting aside house rules.

Frist, your GM must first and all make the game appealing to all the characters. Which in part means he has to design /adapt encounters to fit his party. Without house rules, the best way to give a challenge to heavy armoured players is to make combats with many opponents without degrading them to henchman.

Second, I don't know if a Sigmarite has to "keep up" with a Troll Slayer and a Dwarf Ironbreaker, indeed they are good warrior but I am not sure if they role is that. But if you want to get close to them in combat, first of all get yourself a Plate armor, a hammer (hand weapon) and a shield which will boost your soak to 6 and your defense to 2. Or a Plate armour and a two-handed weapon for soak 5 defense 1. Then get improved parry, block and dodge. If you go for damage output purchase some nice attacking action cards like Troll Feller Strike, Thunderous blow, Mighty Swing, Reckless cleave or One last blow; as an option to this, you can go for three or four action cards with the Way of the Sword trait or Ritual Dance trait. On the other hand if you go for damage mitigation buy cards with the Bulkward trait. This should be enough to make you keep up with the troll slayer or the ironbreaker. Naturally you will have less spell-like action cards.

Cheers

it is clear you have made up your mind. but you can't call using the rules of the game (multiple snotlings, giving enemies access to action cards, providing environmental misfortune, stress and fatigue) breaking the game. you are choosing to limit the tools available to a GM available under the existing rules.

it's a bit like complaining that a wolf is broken because a wolf can't attack a crossbow wielding thug that has climbed up a tree. wolf is broke, needs a ranged attack. when really all that is needed is to use the rules and give the enemy some cunning/intellect. the wolf pack retreats out of range and waits for the thug to fall out due to exhaustion.

I have placed the Ironbreaker last in the dwarf fighter line (Shield, Beard, Breaker)...so the PC has to reach a high rank to get the benefits of being a Ironbreaker.

The Ironbreaker is the super elite warrior according to the GW world and FFG made a huge mistake making it a basic career.

The group all agreed to this and it is a real motivator for the person playing the dwarf. He is thumbing the ironbreaker armour like a kid in the MTG-store holding a Black Lotus.

Yepesnopes said:

Point taken. By "keep up" I really meant "contribute to the party at a level on par with the Ironbreaker and Slayer." For example my Sigmarite's lone ranged attack spell, Twin-Tailed Comet, only does the equivalent of arrow damage even when rolling well. As you suggest I did take Thunderous Blow and Sigmar's Hammer which can do real nice damage. My support spells such as Strength of Sigmar help out considerably. Overall I'm a happy Disciple.

Part of my unspoken gripe is that my GM requires *two* advances for advanced skills, making Piety and Invocation twice as expensive and exacerbating the broken-ness of the Ironbreaker even more.

I think calling Swordmaster and Ironbreaker 'broken' shows a certain lack of imagination on the GM's part. I play an armoured Dwarf, and my GM tends to attack the rest of the party, not my Dwarf, because of the number of defense action cards and soak the Dwarf has. Armoured Dwarf warriors are tough, period.

Where FFG did foul up, is not with the careers as such, but by making both basic careers. By doing that they either showed a profound misunderstanding or incomprehension of both careers place in their own societies or complete contempt for the canon of Warhammer Fantasy. Unfortunately it has to be one or the other, and either worries me a lot. Make both careers advanced and difficult to get into, as they should be.

Regarding making it advanced:

We are playing rank 2 (15 advances) already and I get even worse with Ironshield (auto recharge of a defense). I don't want my GM getting bogged down just trying to kill me, but without the fear of death (whatsoever), this world really loses its grim and gritty feeling. It's just as broken at "advanced" as it was at basic (imho).

It's not that I'm not having fun, but this sucker i just not balanced. It feels like D&D, where my GM's going to have to throw dragons and giants at me at 15 advances just to make it a challenge. Since this is so closely tied to armor, I wonder if a heavy armored knight would be the same?

If there was some way that I could be affected by something else (insanity, disease, or corruption for example), I think there would be balance, but as it stands, there isn't really anything short of a deep pit and swimming that can affect me.

I can't imagine how horrendous a party of two or more ironbreakers would be. That would make for some really boring combats.

{edit: So, not to be a whiner about it, the extra heavy armor is just troublesome. If my ironbreaker could take 2 points a round, it would only take 9 rounds to bring him down. Perhaps then too more defined penalties for heavy armor such as losing the ability to dodge, cannot swim, 2 purple to coordination checks and the like are possible too.)]

jh

I did the same for my group.

You CAN be killed.

Oh yes. What's more, you can be horribly maimed and everyone else can just be maimed. It's tough, but eminently doable. First, have your GM switch on over to hordes with some spellcasters. Even tell him to use the henchmen rules, it's no biggy.

A giant horde of the dark magic spells and a good portion of the colour specific spells cause absolute mayhem, even against heavily armoured targets. Especially against the heavily armoured targets. Will your killing goblins, you, and potentially your party is getting nailed with a horrible horde of debilitating attacks that attack your combat capacity before they they attack your wounds total. The aim is that by the time you've essentially cleaved your way through the horde of plebs to get to the big bad, your so crippled with stress and insanities that you are in serious danger of passing out and since so many of these spells can be directed against several targets, it's easy enough to hit everyone.

Also, if Jay's GM is reading this...

MAGIC DART!

Well, I think from reading the posts here, that many GM's have found a way to fit an Ironbreaker (and I guess any other heavely armoured PC) into their games. Each one did in a different way; I myself didn't even had the problem as I mentioned before; since from the beginning, based on my experiences in 1st (where for example I had to deal with the famous Naked Dwarf Syndrome) and 2nd editions, I house ruled a few things regarding combat and NPC's.

Basically, what I mean is that there is for sure a way and room to include an Ironbreaker and high To /Soak PC's in your games and make the game sessions enjoyable for everyone, the only issue here is that your GM shoudl find his.

Cheers

I don't mean to be masochistic, but yes, the spellcaster is the answer. Hopefully there's more in Blackfire Pass. I figure I can draw their fire while the Disciple of Sigmar goes up and conk's him on the head with his hammer Meanwhile the Giant Slayer can take a nap and do 17 points of damage while snoring.

jh

Great replies, everyone, thanks. And yeah Emirikol, shush! Don't give the GM any ideas!!

As a GM, I don't give a **** if my players slaughter all I send at them, it's not the point of my adventures.

BUT, I do confer with my players if they're okay that one of them is near immortal in combat, if they're not I don't think IB will be fitting as one of the chars.

One thing people tend to forget, when discussing IB, is that these a the finest warriors the normal world has to offer. They're a perfected warmachine, capable of standing ground against hordes, upon, hordes of skaven/greenskins and whatever might come.

One dead IB, leaves the family grieving for a long time, and if his armour/items were lost, they'll send out expeditions to salavage that, and their honour.

This does not help a frustrated GM though, in which case I simply suggest making the IB an advanced career, and have dwarves join soldier first, forcing them to take highest starting wealth, and get a heavy armor set. When they switch to IB, make a ceremony where they swear to uphold dwarven virtues blah blah, and then give them the fabled IB armor.

Change combat mechanics, so the IB can "tank", forcing monsters to fight him, so you can throw strong monsters at them, without fearing a party wipe before the IB finally stands as victorious.

And of course, keep using Misfortune Dice whenever he tries anything but standing still, while wearing that armour, also keep in mind that he can't sleep in it, and also several bio. body functions can't be done in that armour...

Armour also rattles, so many many things you can penalize the char with, if he chose to wear armour that big.

I GM a party with an Ironbreaker. Some ideas who worked great

• Water location = drowning. Swimming in a plate armor is quite daunting isn't it ? But perhaps the dwarf will leave its armor to cross that river ? to progress in the Mouth of Morr (Witch's Song) ? The boat need to be more stable than when it is attacked by reik eel (gathering storm) !
• Unconscious by Fatigue or Stress (ie against undead) works great.
• Have you said trap ? Enough observation ? environment damage is great.
• How far could your run or climb with your armor ? Fall ? capture ?
• etc

Hi,

Would second the earlier comments that some of the race specific careers probably should have been advanced, with entry requirements.

When I GM I dont try to kill my players, or their characters, but I do like them to feel the tension of the possibility of death where appropriate. Realise that is down to taste, and my sessions are seasoned with a fair bit of peril. None of my players has built a combat pony yet (mostly they went for cheating lying scumbag rogues) but I did look at the options for some of the more obvious "breaks". The options for IB seem to point at 4-5' of water, multiple opponents, and especially magic stuff.

If youre a GM with a player who is causing problems with a pimped out IB, a fallen gold wiz should sort this out. Providing you can afford him a couple of rounds, or better yet suprise, Rule of Burning Iron should pot roast the little chap. Or better yet if you wish to keep the character alive but balance play for a little while, a properly prepared Transformation of Metal, turning his shiny Gromril Armour into a very rare and expensive Dwarf sized Gromril Tea Pot.

As someone else mentioned, the GM doesn't have to "break the game rules" to handle an IB. Yes, some extra effort and thought on the GMs part will be required. Honestly, any dwarf in platemail (and potentially any PC) who focuses in defensive advances (like To) will be tough and cause the same "issue". The gromril armor just gets a little extra, and the fact of the PC starting with it.

Keep in mind the optional rules for inflicting extra damage with additional successes. So, as NPCs get tougher, they are more likely to get more successes and inflict more damage too.

Also, remember that WFRP isn't really about the quick death, and it is more about the slow death. Make sure the PCs don't have a lot of time to heal or rest, so their wounds pile up, for example.

In my experience with IBs, they always seem to focus on ultimate defense, meaning while they can take a beating, they can't actually do much damage themselves. That's a trade-off. In my group, my IB had done that. The SM and the priestess of Ulric both would do more damage on an attack than the IB did.

Anyway, I'll repeat, an IB's only real difference/advantage over other combat-oriented PCs is slightly better armor (than purchaseable) ... and starting with it. It does make them 'tougher' in the early ranks, but a dwarf mercenary/soldier can achieve nearly the same status and abilities through a little bit of time (essentially, save up and buy full platemail).

The curve tends to even out at the higher ranks too.

The IB is dependent on their armor. So, any situation where armor is a hinderance, or prohibited, can even the field. A social event where everyone must be in finery and not armor, for example. Having to swim through a submerged cave. Attacked in the middle of the night while the PCs are sleeping. Stealth is required, so everyone needs to remove their armor ... Etc.

<shrug> Honestly, IMO, someone playing an IB isn't looking to face the threat of death... and in fact is aiming to avoid it, so they get what they deserve. If they wanted the fear of death, they should have played a non-combat oriented PC, or at least a less "powerful" one. Nothing says the IB has to increase their To to maximum, nor carry a shield, nor take the various defensive actions, etc. An IB, not designed to max his defensive potential can become IMO a better rounded, and actually more powerful PC.

I had a trollslayer in my party... it was a little tricky getting the balance of challenges right. One of the things I didn't think of until late in the campaign was to have the badguys, especially the cowardly sort to swarm and endanger the other characters, forcing the dwarf to figure out how to defend his party, not just attack the enemies.

dvang said:

Two notable points here, which I have something to say about. (Don't I always?)

First, abso-frigging-lutely right on slow death. WFRP characters should always learn to fear the passage of time and savor the few moments of shuteye they get. With only one or two chances to heal in a given day, even twenty wounds doesn't seem like enough. Keeping pressure on players is one of the really scary elements of wfrp that has, I honestly believe, been exacerbated since the last edition. Currently in Fenderstat's game, (which is brilliant by the way and you should all go check it out on the Obsidian portal page.) Ricknar the wizard is in a very bad way, myself and Klaus are both less than 100% and we're still not out of the bloody place, what's more, we've had a chance to rest as well, but we've all still been slapped around to point that the various healing mechanics just can't make all the bad stuff go away. If you can get even one critical on your pain sink, then he's rolling a two challenge resistance test every morning, which makes those wounds come just that tiny bit slower. So don't fret if you can't knock the heavy down first go, just chip, chip, chip away and he'll start to slowly flag on you.

Finally ultimate defence isn't necessarily a bad thing. Especially with the dreaded saga of grungni. If my party's dwarf watchman had the stats of an ironbreaker he'd be laughing. You need to be sorta careful if your playing an ironbreaker that attacks are still being directed at you. Because GM's don't necessarily have to kill you in particular, I'd say alot get it into their heads that they have to, but it's not really the case. In fact, if your GM wanted to be a complete jerk, he'd force you into the kind of challenge where your character is a hindrance rather than a help. The group knows there'll be a horror combat at the end, but they also know that walking at the speed of the armoured bucket is just going to make the whole ordeal that much worse. Food for thought, methinks.

Hello everyone !

Interesting thread even though the subject has been already talked about so much.

Nice ideas on how to manage a group with one such character in it.

I have two dwarfs with over 30 EPs in my group. One in Plate and chain the other in Full plate. Both have To 5. They are tough.

But I never ever felt the need to nerf them ! First of all, the other players should be grateful that they have such firepower and toughness in their group. It's like walking around with a tank as a bodyguard ! Nice thing when crazed cultists come at you from all sides.

That's my first point :

1) I don't get it when players are envious of another character's damage output. I just feel this notion is slightly juvenile. Having strong allies is a good thing, isn't it ?

My second point is this :

2) As GM, you can always match player power with NPCs of equal strength. It's easy as one two three. A human knight, for example, with a full plate, WS trained once or twice, improved parry and thunderous blow, will be a good test for the IB. These guys are legions in the Imperial army, so...

For example, my players are embroiled in a politics heavy campaign in an Empire on the brink of civil war. One faction against them is a secret fanatic Templar order. Consequently, their adversaries are often battlehardened knights. Full plate and halberds or two-handed swords. Makes for good confrontations. The dwarfs and soldier fight it out while the rest of the party avoids and/or supports. Gives us very good combat scenes, with hostage taking etc, to try and even out the odds.

My third point is this:

3) Let the characters shine at what they are good at. Consequently, the GM should oversee character creation and progress to make sure every player has a specialty of sorts in which he can shine and help out the group. The player who wants to be good all the time and upgrades multiple skills usually just becomes a jack-of-all-trades, and the guy complaining because the other characters are always better than he is.

Let me expand on that. Because it's not just about mechanics. It's also about background. Your Altdorf rogue should get one to three fortune dice to all social rolls when he's on his turf. The IB, being from the mountains, would definitely get one to three Misfortune for these rolls, especially Folklore. Create strong character backgrounds with clear "home-bases" where they should be at their best. Those are all opportunities for the GM to let a player and his character shine.

Then all the GM has to do is make sure the adventure will give different characters ways to shine that are tied to their skills but also and mostly, to their background. We are playing roles and that has to come first. The IB, WD and SM are three strong fighters, as is the TS, but they are very restrictive roles that not all players would be happy to play out. They are strangers to the land, from bizarre cultural backgrounds, and with peculiar views of the world. You have to want to play this to choose those careers. Quite an effort, actually. But potentially very rewarding.

Jericho said:

Quoted for truth! Thanks Jericho! I couldn't agree more with your assessment. Well stated and well thought out.