Hi.

There is the plot Desolate Passage in play: javascript:void(0);/*1324226742529*/

Player A has 2 characters with an intrigue icon, let's say Jaime and Tyrion.

Player B declares an intrigue challenge against Player A and triggers Decadent Brothel on Jaime: javascript:void(0);/*1324226758558*/

Can player A declare first Tyrion as defender and thus Jaime is no more an eligible defender and makes the Brothel fizzle because of Desolate Passage? Or must player A declare Jaim as defender first?

Ikaros said:

Jamie must defend

Are you sure?

Decant Brothel reads: "Response: after you declare attackers during an Intrigue challenge, kneel Decadent Brothel to choose a character. That character must be declared as a defender during this challenge, if able ".

Desolate Passage reads: Each player cannot declare more than 1 attacker or defender in each challenge".

So, let's say Desolate Passage is my active plot.

I also control 2 Decadent Brothels in play, and I declare an intrigue challenge. As a response, I activate both DB on two different characters controlled by my opponent (let's say Tyrion and Jaime)

I assume that is not possible that both Tyrion and Jaime will partecipate in the challenge, especially because of the "if able" part, so one of the two DB fizzle.

Who does not partecipate? I think that defending players choses defending characters using the order he/she wishes, so the first chosen (among Tyrion and Jaime) partecipates in the challenge, the other one doesn't.

So, why this is not true if there is a single DB in play that targets Jaime? When defending player chooses defending characters, he/she chooses first Tyrion, then, because of Desolate Passage, he/she cannot choose Jaime, so (because of "if able" part) DB fizzles...

Thank you very much.

In your first example I would say Jaime would have to be declared as the defender. After Attackers are declared the Decadent Brothel's response was triggered (occured before defenders are chosen) and targetted Jaime. So now it is time to choose Defenders and Jaime must be declared so the player has to choose him.

In your second scenario with 2 Decadent Brothel's triggered the First Player decides which one defends and not the defender(unless they happen to be First Player).

Ok! So it seems that a character targeted by Decadent Brothel is automatically declared as a defender,

as soon as step 2 of the Framework Action window ("2. Defending player kneels defending characters") begins,

before defending player has the option to chose other defending characters.

If ambigous effects take place (ex. 2 Decadent Brothels), the first player resolves.

Thank you for clarifing this

This is not quite correct.

The reason, in your first example, why Jamie must be declared as the defender is because all defenders are chosen and declared at the same time. In order for Jaime to not be "able" to be declared as a defender (thus getting around Decadent Brothel through its "if able" text), you would have to declare Tyrion as a defender first. But the timing doesn't work that way. It's not "Tyrion defends, then Jaime defends," it's "Tyrion and Jaime defend - at the same time." So, since Desolate Passage says you can only select 1 defender and Decadent Brothel says you have to prefer one character over the other when selecting defenders, the way to satisfy both restrictions is to declare Jaime as your only defender.

In short, there is normally no "order" to selecting defenders, so you cannot say that Tyrion was selected first, invalidating the Brothel effect on Jaime. If anything, the Brothel effect creates a preference/order for selecting defenders, making you select Jamie first.

The "if able" text on the Brothel says that if somehow, Jaime is knelt, loses his icon, or is bypassed by stealth (for example) before defenders are declared, you are not prevented from declaring Tyrion or otherwise penalized because Jaime cannot participate in the challenge without breaking the rules.

Now, if you have 2 Brothels, one targeting Jamie and one targeting Tyrion, you are effectively recreating the same situation as if you had no Brothels at all. You are required to declare (normal would be "could declare") both Jaime and Tyrion - but you cannot. The play restrictions/requirements to declare both Tyrion and Jaime are not "conflicting passive effects," so the First Player privilege to decide the order of conflicting passive effects does not come into play. This is more like Fear of Winter only letting you play one card from hand when you have 6 to choose from. Does the First Player get to choose which 1 of the 6 you get to play? Of course not. Similarly, if you can only declare 1 of 2 characters as a defender, even though you must declare 1 of them, why whould the first player get to make that choice for you? In the 2 Brothel situation, the defending player decides which of the 2 characters defends. The other is not "able."

Darn it, ktom!! I knew you'd have something to say here, so I tried to do it first. - FAIL Well, since I've already typed it, I might was well click 'Publish'...

Some people may have issue with the use of the word "automatically", as there are a variety of things that couuld occur prior to declaring defenders that would negate Decadent Brothel's effect (removing icons via Martell effects, preventing a character from knelling via Black Cells, etc...). Keep in mind that all defenders are actually knelt simultaneously as far as the framework is concerned, even though most people kneel them individually as they do the STR math. In your first example, Jaime is required to be a defender by the location so, per the plot, no other defenders are allowed to be declared.

I believe the "if able" text is there so players don't think that the choosen character could be a defender even if they didn't have the appropriate icons.

ktom said:

This means, I can also declare no-one as defender (unopposed)? Or a third charater not chosen by both DB? I know this a nearly impossible scenario, but I'd like to understand rules as well as I can.

Also, please, why these are not conflicting passive?

"Tyrion must be declared as a defender" and "Jaime must be declared as a defender"

Sorry to bother you. Thank you for your patience!

Ikaros said:

Because they are not passive effects. The declaration of defenders is not done during the Passive effect window. They are play restrictions on who can be declared as defenders.

Both characters are "able" to be declared as defenders, so you must choose which one is the only one declared while that plot is out. Both cannot be declared at the same time, so you just choose one of the two.

Ikaros said:

If you must do A and you must do B, I'm not sure how you are coming up with the idea that you can do neither.

And since the 1-Brothel scenario doesn't let you declare Tyrion so that Jaime is "not able," I'm not sure why you are thinking that, in the 2-Brothel scenario, declaring a 3rd character would make both Tyrion and Jaime "not able."

Ikaros said:

1. No, you still have to resolve the effects to the maximum extent. The only way to do that is to still kneel only one of the characters targeted by the locations, since the "cannot" on the plot card is an absolute. What ktom meant by "effectively recreating the same situation as if you had no Brothels at all" (coming from an assumtion that these two characters are the only ones in play) is that you go from (1) having no choice but declaring the targeted character as a defender, to (2) being able to decide which if the two targets you want to declare - same as if no Brothels were triggered.

2. Per the FAQ on resolving conflicting passive effects (pg.14): "If two passive effects are triggered at the same time, the first player always chooses the order in which these effects are resolved." Since these locations were triggered one at a time, they do not qualify for the above statement, which is why the defender gets to make the choice, not the First Player. Also, as Bomb stated, not 100% certain they are actually passive effects...?

sabrefox said:

These are conditions that have been placed on the characters for a set duration. Ultimately, the are play restrictions at the point of declaring defenders. If they were passive effects, they would have an initiation you could interrupt and potentially cancel them. Where would you play a cancel to "Tyrion must be declared as a defender in this challenge" once the Brothel has resolved?

Not that there are a lot of passive effect cancels out there, but still....

ktom said:

Simply, I get confused by your sentece I've made bold. You wrote "you are effectively recreating the same situation as if you had no Brothles at all ". This sounded strange to me and asked confirmation. You meant it just about the choice among Jaime and Tyrion