Heir works better with the Army build. For Dragons I'd actually probably go no Agenda unless I was running a fair amount of claim 2 plots.

I was talking with Damon and hes said that getting characters that are not alive during the books is extremely difficult, and generally frowned upon. I doubt we'll see any more dragons until Melisandre raises one or we at least get whispered rumors of more in the East.

I would like to see at least one more attachment that gives the dragon trait and some utility characters that get stronger when you have a dragon in play on the order of Qartheen Fanatic, The Good Masters, or Slave Masters.

Mathias Fricot said:

Haha, beauty, I love it

perpetual noob said:

Renown works just as well when you win two power challenges as it does when you win one intrigue and one power. In fact, if you're going for that type of renown rush then two power challenges would be better as you still have another chance at repeating your claim effect, rather than making them discard a card.

Not that I'm sticking up for Heir to the Iron Throne. It's a bit rubbish, really. Nothing like as powerful as the up and coming Lannister agenda... not even a smidgeon. I do hope Targ receive a better Agenda at some point. Coming up with an idea for one is a bit of a challenge, though.

I disagree that the Heir to the Iron Throne is significantly worse than Power Behind the Throne. The Lannister agenda is a bit better, but not by much. I think the problem is that Targ is ill suited to take advantage of the extra Power challenge, wheras Lannister is obviously VERY well suited to take advantage of the extra intrigue challenge. Heir to the Iron Throne makes little sense as a Targ card. That doesn't make the actual Agenda bad, just not easy to make work. If Power Behind the Throne was House Greyjoy Only, it wouldn't be any worse, just less playable.

Staton said:

I agree completely. Power Behind the Throne and Siege of Winterfell both capitalize on a house strength. Even Baratheon is particularly well suited to the Knights of the Relm agenda, even though it's not house specific. Heir to the Iron Throne, however, doesn't really seem to fit in with any existing Targ build. Knights of the Hollow Hill, the Summer Agenda, or The Maester's Path all seem like much more obvious inclusions when building a Targ deck, not only because they shore up a weakness (cost curve, draw, or speed), but also because Targ has existing cards that can really take advantage of those agendas.

Maybe there is a Targ build out there that can really take advantage of the Heir agenda, but I am not creative enough to figure that one out. Non-kneeling dragons seem like a pretty obvious choice, but then we come around full circle to whether dragons are actually competitive.

Serazu said:

The idea for the recurring Balierion is quite hilarious. With a card that powerful, you always wonder about a way to keep getting him out. Fortunately, I actually like the glass cannon style of play. You go for the throat and if you don't hit it, you lose. Fortunately, there are things you can include that can help you bounce back. I'll report back after I do some more testing.

perpetual noob said:

See here's the problem. When you look at an Agenda you should say, "Wow this really brings that one deck together brilliantly!" Kinda like that rug from The Big Lebowski. You shouldn't try and shoehorn some other build into working with the agenda. It just won't work, and at best it'll be a nice novelty. Sure if Siege of Winterfell wasn't house specific you could probably build a Martell Siege of Winterfell, but why would you? It just wouldn't be that competitive.

Serazu said:

The good thing about this combo is that you can build virtually anything around it as long as you include enough Maesters. You don't need the Copper Link though, you can wait until Summer Encampment stands naturally and bounce Balerion then.

Staton said:

That rug really did bring the room together.

Zach

Staton said:

Cost benefit is not worth it with heir.

You sacrifice one two very important control challenges since either you give your opponent 100% safe hand or surrender board control with military challenges.

With Lannisters you sacrafice nothing it only get's a bit riskier to play INT challenges but if you manage to get 2 INT wins against enemy he can say good bye to his cards.

Skowza said:

True, though it's always better to bounce Balerion as soon as you can in case your opponent has aces in the hole. Besides, in a Dragon deck full of Maesters, it would be a shame if Copper Link was left out. Danny as a Dragon, Dragon Bite, etc. So many uses...

Don't forget that if you bounce Balerion almost everything will be kneeled on your side too

I was testing a Heir to the Iron Throne Rush for the Stahleck Melee, but ran out of time in getting the deck finalized... seemed somewhat relevant as an idea.

The parts for this are slowly starting to get there, but I'm not sure if there is enough support for it in the cheap characters and locations yet... then again First Snow of Winter might actually play to this deck's strengths.

Stuff that I learned there was:

Characters:

- Khal Drogo (DotN) and the new Ser Barristan Selmy as focal renown rushers (3x), since both also assert a nice pressure on your opponent. Core Dany also gives another nice cheap renown for the deck, and I'd also put in one Viserion for the stealth (uo's) & location hate.

- Support from utility characters (Dragon Thiefs for attachment hate, Carrion birds for stealth & seasons etc.) and some of the unique Dothraki (Jhogo for draw & stealth, Aggo for Deadly). Maybe the attachment-loving Viserys for some final power push.

- Sadly Lyanna can't be used with Royal Favor :/

Events:

- Royal Favor so your rushers can do multiple challenges without kneeling. True Power for forced challenge wins with Khal Drogo worked well...

- Stand & stand events are part of the problem, since Lanni can be tricky - Distinct Mastery and To Be A Dragon are probably you're only choices there.

- Seductive Promise & Forever Burning could both work nicely (Seductive with Barristan pushing uo's and Forever with Khal's kill).

- Ride them Down would help in having more renown in the deck, by using your dothraki support for rushing as well.

- Dragon support is always fun with both Khal & Selmy

Attachments:

- Probably better to run more events and less attachments, unless you decide to brave the links, use Pentos for added Valar protection and stick with Targ in-house attachments

- Regarding neutrals: Strength boosts from Rusted Sword seemed pretty decent with Khal and Jousting Lance helps nicely as well

- Barristan would really need a noble crest, so I was trying out the Dragon's Blood

- Flame-kissed as a support for rush is fun

End Result: If anything the deck's a horrible glass sword, but simultaneously rushing to victory and killing a whole lot of characters is the most fun you can have in 2-3 Plots.

michaelius said:

A trade I am totally willing to make.

A correction: Balerion's entry kneels everything, "bow *******!" et al., not his bounce.

michaelius said:

That's why the Lannister agenda is better. However, I still don't think giving up the intrigue challenge or the military challenge is that bad. I've had plenty of Bara rush decks that don't do intrigue challenges. Did it hurt me? Not really, because for the most part I could care less what cards they have in their hand. I mean a rush deck just tries to get as much power as possible as quickly as possible. Being able to do another power challenge is more important than doing an intrigue challenge for a rush deck.

WWDrakey said:

These are some really interesting ideas. I had a similar idea with the renown stuff (in particular DotN Khal Drogo). One other guy that I thought might be interesting in a rush-type deck is Daemon Blackfyre. He serves two big purposes. First, he's one of the very few Targ Characters with printed renown. But he also gives characters a war crest, which can be combined with Pike Phalanx to increase your claim. Using a two claim plot you might be able to get through two 3-claim power challenges. That's 6 power in one turn, not including renown or unopposed.

Staton said:

Bara can give up on intrigue challenges a lot easier than Targ can, Knights of the Realm can mitigate any damage from cards lost from the hand, as well as the fact Bara can also drop everything from the hand in pusuit of the rush. Furthermore, Bara don't have to even give up the challenges, as lots of decks will play Melisandre, Marya Seaworth or a number of other cards. Therefore your opponent can't completely go all out with his intrigue offensive without risk.. unlike playing against Heir to the Iron Throne where there is NO risk of retaliation. You're also tying up 'rush' quite closely with additional power challenges. There's a problem with that, in that you can have the additional power challenge but if you're rushing and putting pressure on your opponent, there's a good chance that they won't even have power on their house which means they additional power challenge is a stack less effective than an intrigue challenge where your claim would count for something. Of course, having played a lot of Bara decks yourself, you'll know that Bara are also capable of additional power challenges even without an agenda, but this is not at the expense of any other challenge type.. ie; 4 challenges a turn! and that has a lot more in common with the Lannister Agenda, because when Power Behind the Throne is release they too will be able to initiate up-to 4 challenges per turn, every turn.

I also don't see the logic in saying that Heir isn't a bad card, it's just with the wrong house. That's like saying Jojen Reed is a great card, he just needs to be Greyjoy instead of Stark :S

Well, maybe it could be better one day if they introduce the right right cards to Targaryen, but you can say that about any other card. Most people agree that Heir to the Iron Throne can have it's moments, but that all in all, it's not nearly as good as the Agendas out there.

There's a difference between a bad card and a card that is in the wrong house. Fog of War is a bad card. Its terrible. I actually get physically ill when I think of that card. That card is the cause of everything wrong in the world. Seriously, **** that card! Heir to the Iron Throne is in the wrong house.

I want to try an Heir deck forgoing military challenges, and use my burn to kill off their characters. DOTN Khal will provide a kill during the power challenges, Pyat Pree will provide one during the Intrigue challenges... I think that there is something there, or something really close. So many people don't look at Targ in relation to power challenges as a primary challenge that I think they haven't stopped to really see what could be done if you put aside all assumptions and expectations and really examine the card pool.

Of course I could also be wrong.

Penfold said:

DOTN Khal + Bloodrider's Arkh + Flaming Pitch Tower could get you some serious board control - assuming you can get the combo going and keep it in place.

Now that just looks good clean family fun!

Staton said:

The card is in the right house but its the wrong design. Its kinda boring in comparison to the Lanni agenda. The Lanni agenda allows you to capitalize on a House strength but there's still an element of danger in using it. That's interesting. Same goes for Siege. I kinda wish Heir was more like both. Heir reduces your card advantage which is bad for a house with already weak card advantage.

At least Targ's getting something a little more to help Heir though. Ride Them Down and Barristan works well with Heir. We'll see if there's some more love later.

Penfold said:

I've tried this; I played an Heir deck with no M challenges at Gen Con in warmup to see how it would fare against competitive decks (and outside of my meta). I ran it with Shadows, mostly so I could use KL as a draw mechanic since Targ draw sucks... lots of decent characters with Intrigue icons, Shadow Seer, Warlock of Qarth, etc. It didn't do very well, but I knew going in that the deck was pretty slow and still needed work. At some point I'm going to revisit that deck, but I think there are still a few pieces missing. The new Selmy will help a lot; I also should have used more Aegon's Hill, probably 3x next time if I can fit it in. Nonetheless, I still think Heir is one of the weakest Agendas available until Targ gets access to more Renown.

Honestly, there is a pretty large supply of neutral renown at the moment....

Kennon said:

It probably would be better with those new Knights/Dothraki event giving renown...

michaelius said:

Would it also give them a power icon? Cos half the Dothraki are short on that too ;-)