One of the most oft-discussed and frequently pondered aspects of WFPR3 is all of the "stuff" (i.e. everything that isn't in the softcover books). The Action Cards, Party Sheets, Stance Track, Location Cards, etc. Often times, players discuss the success/failure of their use of some (or all) of these bits and pieces and whether or not they feel that the game is better or worse for them.

What follows is a quick run-down of what *I* have learned about WFRP3 from my campaigns, concerning the aspects that I have (for one reason or another) identified as unnecessary and/or distracting to *my group's* experience and (briefly) if and how I've replace those mechanisms (whether physical "bits" or rules systems) in my games. It's worth mentioning that I'm a fairly "low-prep" GM. Always have been. I have my "adventure" set up in my mind and the proper NPCs, locations and monsters at the ready but I otherwise let the players do the walking and react to the decisions that they make.

Disclaimer: All of what follows is entirely a matter of *subjective opinion* based solely upon personal experience and is not intended to express negativity toward the game or any of its contributors or participants. On the contrary, it is intended to spark further and extensive exchange of creative thoughts and ideas and as resource to prompt other WFRP3 enthusiasts to consider possible solutions to any of their own difficulties that perhaps crop up during their games. Enjoy and take everything I propose with a grain of salt! It's *your* game, afterall!

1) Party Sheets - I remove them from the game entirely. They are a neat idea (several neat ideas, actually) but the tracking of Party Tension and the table-real estate taken up by the sheet itself and any slotted Talents is a bit too much effort for too little return. I still use the Fortune Pool but simply stock them up behind my screen until they reach the point of "Refresh". For party tension, we simply defer to role play and good judgement about when the party is "on edge".

2) Organization/Creature Sheets - See #1 above. If I want to give baddies Talents and the like, I will do so without the sheet and I generally resort to making simple notes as NPC factions have their agendas advanced/hindered.

3) Recharge Tokens (Warning: Controversial) - Recharge in general is too rampant and too time-consuming for myself and my group. Individual cards are not problematic. It's when there are a dozen cards between a handful of players in various states of Recharge that it causes confusion and distraction. We switched away from using "chits" to using d6s which reduced clutter but didn't solve the inherent problem. House-rules are still in early stages of playtesting but we're simply trying an alternate approach where cards either "Recharge" automatically (Recharge Value 0-3) or only "Recharge" at the end of the scene/encounter (Recharge Value 4+), with some additional rules thrown in to make it work.

4) Tracking Tokens - The default cardboard tokens are too small, light, hard to pick up and difficult to see against the color schemes of cards and character sheets. With the changes in #3 above, tokens on cards are now a non-issue but we have also replaced Fortune Points, Fatigue and Stress tokens with colored glass beads. Much easier to see/manipulate and relevant for tracking status between sessions when character sheets are stowed. I continue to use the default Corruption tokens as normal (because they're awesome!).

5) Stance Meter and Dice - We like the option for characters to choose Stances and how Stances impact the results. Forcing characters to "throttle" Stance on a die-by-die basis, however, is another "fidgit" that players get tripped up on or forget entirely. We keep record of Stance tracks as normal but simplify it such that players simply need choose to the appropriate Stance and decide how many dice (up to their PC's normal limit) to replace. Characters can still only shift one "step" (Conserv. to Neutral for example) for free but may take 1 Stress to shift again, if desired (1 Stress to shift between Reckless and Conserv.). This creates a nice "risk vs. reward" game that the players must consider when they take a Stance.

6) Delay Results - The results for rolling Delays have never seem very convincing or compelling (IMO) and with the house rules from #3 in place, extra Recharge on Action Cards becomes impractical. Shifting characters 1 space on the Initiative ladder has also never proven to change a conflict in any appreciable way (especially since WFRP3 uses "team" init anyway). Since Reckless dice impose Fatigue, it seemed reasonable and compelling to equate Conservative dice to Stress. So we established house rules that a Delay result imposes 1 Stress on the character for each Maneuver attempted the same round in addition to normal Fatigue gained (representing the "Oh, crap! I took too much time lining up my shot!" effect). This has the further result of increasing the presence of Stress in-game, a condition which is otherwise fairly rare and too easily overcome.

7) Range and Movement - Love the abstract nature of movement and the separation from any kind of grid-based, real-world values mapping system. The system breaks down a bit when large numbers of characters begin moving off in different directions. My solution is fairly direct and simple. Essentially, I've adapted the "Zone" system from Spirit of the Century/FATE 3.0 (also known as the "Area" system from TSR's Marvel Super Heroes). Each Maneuver allows a character to move 1 Zone. Characters in the same Zone are "Close" and may spend a Maneuver to Engage. 1-2 Zones away is "Medium", 3-5 Zones is "Long" and 6+ Zones is "Extreme". More details on "Zones" and what they represent in the future if anyone need clarification.

That's all for now. Thanks for reading and leave your comments!

1) Party Sheets -

* I like the idea of just keeping a stack of fortune for recharge behind the screen, but I think I'd rather just reward individual players for good, heroic roleplaying. It's one of two disincentives to roleplaying in this game: Fortune point recharge and 1 xp/game session.

2) Organization/Creature Sheets:

* Absolutely. A GM thats playing accountant behind the screen is not paying attention to his players. It's one thing to quickly apply ->track ->roleplay, it's quite another when it's taking excess time away from "the action."

3) Recharge Tokens -

*We did the 4+ was "per encounter" for a while, but my players found once they were proficient that they could multitask and still roleplay. It's just accounting to some degree though. One thing we don't bother accounting: TALENT RECHARGE. This is just silly to tack that onto even more accounting. THose we still do "per encounter."

4) Tracking Tokens

* Yes, glass or acrylic beads work better. Dice are fine but there's no 'zero' marker, so most people just seem to put them aside when it's zero.

5) Stance Meter and Dice -

* This also helps to reduce the one-trick battle ponys with STR 5, TOU5 and crap mental stats..but only if you remind them early.

6) Delay Results -

** I had an idea not to give them stress (man, that's harsh!), but to either give them a facedown insanity card (something like shame), or just have them lose their next free stance shift and/or maneuver. I've leaned towards the latter b/c then I don't need to create a whole new mechanic.

7) Range and Movement

* This is what I consider a flaw in the system. Having multiple maneuvers for one range but not another is more "rules" that aren't efficient. Better just to say "6 zones away" like you say, and that would be extreme range equivalent.

Bloody Sun Boy said:

Exertion results are only Fatigue when it's a physical roll. Do you have Delays and Exertion both give stress on mental rolls?

Emirikol said:

The "player-based vs. group-based rewards" is a topic I've weighed in on before. Personally I've come to prefer the scenario where the efforts of one benefit the whole but that's far too involved and off-topic for this thread. I do agree with you on the "1 XP/session" though. I don't hand out XP at the end of each session but at the end of each "adventure" or major development in the campaign and base it on various considerations.

Emirikol said:

One of the things I have noticed (perhaps just an artifact of my style of GMing and the sort of foes my PCs have been facing) is that most combats are over after a handful of rounds. As such, it seems fairly rare that Actions with more than 4 Recharge or so ever become important again once they've been "tripped". Still, it's in an early stage of playtest, so we'll see how it all shakes down.

Emirikol said:

My initial house rule for Delays started off as "No further Maneuvers this round" but it quickly became apparent that Conservative PCs would then attempt to perform all their Maneuvers *first* and then roll their action. So, it evolved into "No further Maneuvers and Stress = Maneuvers performed - 1" But then my players responded that they thought PCs should still be able to perform further Maneuvers if they need to but simply impose Stress when they do so. So, that's how it evolved to its current state.

Doc, the Weasel said:

Thanks for the reminder. Yes, I still use Exertion rules as normal, imposing Fatige on physical and Stress on mental. Delays however, are indiscriminant of the type of action taken and don't *inherently* impose Stress...only adding an additional cost to performing Maneuvers that round. There's no real danger of "doubling-up" though since no one (except Tzeentch daemons) can roll both Delays and Exertions in the same roll.

CONSERVATIVE HOURGLASS : if you find the 2 token not enough efficient... I think you don't put these on the player's Active Defenses... Try it

Wow, what a great thread!

I’m an old school RPG-er who is getting back into it with WHFRP 3e. I ran the demo scenario a few years back, but have not really looked at the game since. Now some friends and I are gearing up for a campaign and this sort of info is exactly what I’m looking for. I will consider this info heavily when planning out how to run my first adventure. We chose WHFRP 3e over another FRPG mainly because we are all WHFB players and love the setting.

I’ve always been fast and loose with rules in RPGs, never letting rules and mechanics get in the way of a good narrative. This thread has given me some insight into what sort of changes I may need to look at to streamline the mechanics so things don't get bogged down. I already know that things like progress trackers will see minimal use in my games as I prefer role playing and for resolution of such things.

Are there any other pitfalls I should look out for when running my campaign?

Dosadi

willmanx said:

That was actually my default and by-far most often used result when Delays came up (as it was generally the most directly impactful option). One of the problems is that players often have 2-3 Active Defenses and losing just one of them for a round or two wasn't proving very inconvenient. The other issue became coming up with an explaination of *why* a particular Active Defense was lost each time, which was okay the first time or two it happened but started to get exhausting and stretch suspension of disbelief when it happened over and over again. I suppose one should also consider the existence of my house rule that only 1 Active Defense can be applied per attack (you cannot both Dodge and Parry the same attack, for example) which removes "Defense Stacking".

Of course, my decision to ditch Recharge tokens entirely also meant that having Delays add them to Active Defenses became contradictory, so I had to pursue other ideas. Still with the idea of Delays affecting Active Defenses in my head, I initially toyed with something along the lines of "If you roll a Delay, you may not perform Active Defenses until the start of your next turn" but my players (and myself, in hindsight) thought that too harsh. So, I stepped away from the "Defense" idea and it evolved into the "Maneuver" idea that exists today.

Dosadi said:

Glad I could help! That was exactly my goal when I started this thread.

I, too, find that I rarely use Progress Trackers. I've used them once or twice but I find that I'm generally too distracted with other things (NPCs, background events, player questions) and I end up forgetting to advance them. So, yes, they have proven to be less helpful for my style of GMing than I hoped they would. Use the stuff that *improves* your game and toss the stuff that *diminishes* it.

In my opinion, house-ruling is a sign of love. If you spend the time and energy to twist and tweak a game to maximize the experience, obviously care about it on some level. If you didn't care about the game, you would have probably just pitched it out the window by now! As always, there are some exceptions.

Bloody Sun Boy said:

1. Party Sheets - I've actually found that my players enjoy the party sheet mechanics and the ways I use it to convey mood and atmosphere. I'm constantly adjusting it a couple of spaces here and there to reflect changes in the environment etc. I've also tweaked the way fortune is generated and the repercussions of having the tension meter drop to zero or max out. When the tension track reaches it's maximum, all party fortune is deleted from the party card. When the card reaches zero, a number of fortune = to the number of PCs is placed on the card. This is divided and distributed amongst the PCs during rally steps and at the end of particular Acts. The party tension meter can be reduced through acts of selflessness (assisting a fellow PC during combat, staying up to provide overnight care to a wounded comrad, etc), or a good nights rest around a comfortable camp, or via carousing as a group at a tavern, and so on. My players also like describing how they are advising the group when socketing a talent to the sheet.

i.e. the roadwarden PC sockets a tactic to the sheet and explains "I tell everyone to stay sharp and look out for shadows moving in the underbrush"

In all, the party sheet rarely detracks from our games, but offers another Roleplaying que through a rather simple mechanic.

2. Organizaion/Creature sheets - to be honest, I have yet to use any of the creature sheets, and have only had one chance to use the Ashaffenberg family favor sheet. Honestly, I don't see myself using these on a regular basis, though I won't get rid of them wholesale.

3&4 Tokens (recharge and tracking) - while I have noticed that some of my players have a habit of mixing up the various tokens (using tracking tokens to track stress and fatigue and vice versa), overall it's not a huge issue as I have my players write down any between session tracking information om their character sheets anyway.

5. Stance meter and dice - This is the one thing that I've considered doing away with and replacing with a mechanic similar to the one mentioned above. My players often forget to adjust their stance meter at the beginning of their turn and often find themselves asking if they can do so half way through their action card phase.

6. Delay results - I've got no problem with this as it is written.

7. Range & Movement - we tend to shift between the abstract core rules for range and grid based squares for more strategic encounters.

Patry Sheets are the only thing that my table sees little use of/forgets etc. that I ponder ditching as a result.

Everything else is not a problem/works fine/fun insofar as table goes.

Rob