I'd like to repeat an ol' question I had about DH, which is still unresolved and relevant for BC.

The Knock-Down action is an opposed Strength test. It says nothing about needing to actually hit whoever you are trying to Knock down first.

Yet I think the targets Agility and ability to evade should enter the picture here, otherwise some big, slow brute will routinely swipe the floor with the agile assassin. Knock-Down, Attack. Then the Assassin needs to Stand (Half Action) and might have taken damage and fatigue. This severely reduces his chances. Rinse, lather, and repeat.

Have I missed something? Can you Dodge Knock-Down? At least Grapple requires a WS test to Hit, that can be dodged.

Even if it does not allow dodge, I don't think it's quite as good as you think. Firstly, Knock-Down has the attack action subtype, meaning it can't be followed with a normal attack. Secondly, any intelligent agile assassin-type will have gotten the T1-talent Leap Up that makes standing up a free action.

True. It may still cause damage and fatigue though, which the ninja-assassin can do nothing to avoid. It will also leave him prone unitl the Assassins turn, giving the brutes friends a good chance at smacking him around with a nice to-hit bonus as well as giving the Assassin penalties to his Evasion tests.

On the one hand I find it strange if you cannot dodge this Attack, but on the other it seems strange to get a sort of "double defense" by resisting the Attack.

Perhaps it is a bit like Spray weapons, where there is no to-hit roll, but the target tests Agility to avoid the effects.

In a way that makes sense: You do not roll to-hit, it is an auto-success making this a useful attack for poor WS (but high Strength) characters. It forces the target to use an Evasion, or risk being knocked down.

Well, if you really dont like the rules as written, change them. I suggest having anyone that's being attacked with a Knock-down attack choose, wether they either:
1. Try to jump away (Dodge)
2. Or steel themselves for the impact (Opposing Strength)

In this, if they try to dodge, and fail, they are knocked prone. Or perhaps allow them a strength test with a penalty, since there is no "Attack test" in the action.

Darth Smeg said:

While the fatigue and damage are unavoidable, if you have leap up, being prone isn't. Free actions are not limited to you turn, unless the gm rules otherwise. Counter attacks grant a free action attack, and the Champion special ability likewise requires a free action activation and only almost always will be activated on other characters turns. For once, here's a rule I like, and think works. Leap up turns you into one of those really annoying inflatable clown punching bags! You just get up the very instant you get knocked down.

As for the evasion, well, it's listed as an attack. It has the attack subtype. It's not that hard to construe it as an attack, which evasions avoid, so that's really up to the GM.

Knock down is there to benefit high strength opponents though, just like parry's there to benefit high WS characters versus low WS ones. Honestly, the damage is not guaranteed unless you're a human being pushed around by a SM, and even then it's not exactly a lasblast to the face. The fatigue is annoying, agreed, but eh.

Personally I'd probably allow evasions. It feels like it's an attack, and reactions are rare enough in this game that using one on avoiding knockdown is a bit of a choice in anything but one on one, since that means you're down one reaction when someone hits you with a power fist. And knock down is not something that's very beneficial in one on one, so anyone using it in that situation is a bit of a dumb ass.

Reverend mort said:

I don't think that's right (but feel free to correct me). The section on Actions on p 234 states:

" A Free Action takes only a moment and requires no real effort by the character. Free Actions may be performed in addition to any other Actions on a character’s Turn , and there is no formal limit to the number of Free Actions one character can take. "

It says nothing on performing Free Actions outside your turn in general. Counter Attacks are an exception that is specifically described:

" the character may immediately make an attack against that opponent using the weapon with which he parried as a Free Action even though it is not his turn. "

As to my original question, I think you should be allowed to Dodge (and I don't think the RAW disagrees, it just isn't clear).

But if you fail your Dodge, and fail the opposed Strength test, then I still say you're prone until your next turn. Regardless of Leap Up.

Darth Smeg said:

I'd consider certain Free Actions (like those obviously reacting to something else, like Counter Attacks and the Champion ability) exempt from the "only on your turn" rule, while others (talking and leap up) shouldn't be.

And for some reason character can't talk when it's not their turn, which seems unfun.

Considering how long a round takes, it seems reasonable that there's only so much back-and-forth banter that can be accomodated.

Cifer has it right. The whole round goes by in the span of seconds, Most of combat banter goes on simultaneously, or in spaces so small they're negligible from the narrative standpoint. Thus, only talking on your own Turn is a meta restriction so that combat doesn't get bogged down by lengthy discussions.

I think there's some room between "Reciting an entire play in-between swings of your sword" and "Not being allowed to respond to the taunts of your enemy because he goes after you in the initiative order" that we can comfortably play at without an insane suspension of disbelief going on, but maybe that's just me!

As for the exempt Free actions I can agree there's some I'd allow. However, honestly, I might just want to include Leap up in that category. Sure it's a tier 1 talent, but with the major danger of knock down being in-between getting it and your turn, I'm not sure a talent that saves you a half action is really anything to write home about, tier 1 or not. Not certain, but it's a thought, to be honest.

Oh, but you are able to respond to an enemy going after you - in the next round, right before your own action. I don't think that's going to make much of a difference.

Leap-Up definitely has all kinds of uses, especially if you had better uses for that second half action than "Er... aim for +10 BS". For example, a leaping character can Charge, a leaping character can Run (away), a leaping character can go into Defensive Stance. A leaping character can make much better use of low cover, as he can easily afford to end his turns by dropping prone into full cover, then leaping up once his next turn begins.
It's one hell of a T1 talent compared to some others.

Morangias said:

Slightly off topic... o.k...completely off topic, BUT

A friend of mine was a stickler of not only waiting for your turn to speak, but wanted to limit speech to 1 or 2 words.

I pointed out that you could say quite a bit in 6 seconds and demonstrated by reciting the blurb from the pin-up girl in the local trashy newspaper:

"Candi, 21, wants to be a police officer and a part-time model. This five-foot-five beauty loves dancing, singing in the shower, playing rugby, volleyball and skydiving."

Probably not something that often gets yelled out in a fire-fight...but it's under 6 seconds!

To actually add something to the thread I'll say that, if you were to make leap-up a a free action any time in the round, it would probably take away too much from knock-down. Part of it's effectiveness is to give your allies a chance to wail on the opponent.

Well, IF you allow Leap Up for free, you remove just about the only thing Knock-Down is good for.

Seeing as how it seems we agree that the Ninja-assassin is allowed to dodge the Knock-Down, I really don't see why we need to remove it's teeth.