It seems like this is the kind of plot that could have a big impact on how people look at deck building, but I'm wondering just how much.

Thoughts?

Its going to make me very unhappy; I play a lot of Targ and Stark weenie decks. Not like I have much of a choice in Targ since their high-cost characters tend to suck (yes there are exceptions like Jhogo and new Selmy, but the majority of their high-cost characters are less effective then the ones found in other Houses). I'd like to think it'll hurt Martell, which I'm all for, but they'll still have access to many of their tricks (for example, Orphan can be used before the effect of FSoW) so I'm not sure it'll be as bad for them. Wondering what some of the CCG-era players think...

It seems pretty different from the CCG version, especially since it can no longer be canceled by whatever 'When revealed' canceler is in the meta at the time (e.g. Outwit.) I'm curious to see if it will cause Forgotten Plans to see more play. It will definitely affect the way people build their decks. Seems like Maesters will take a decent hit out of some Houses (especially Greyjoy). The #occupythecitadel guys should be happy about that.

I think we'll see a lot more use of returning your OWN characters to your hand than people thinking. I think its going to be more combo oriented than just a flat out soft reset. Works great with Boltons, works great with Targ Ambush. Heck, killing off Lucas Blackwood during your marshalling phase to do a military should be fun! I think people will use it to bounce some of their come into play characters too. Fleabottom Scavenger, House Messenger, Dragon Thief, etc.

Personally, I can't wait. Valar is...well...Valar, and Wildfire isn't doing it for me, so it is nice to have another control plot that helps control over-extension but still gives income and claim.

Plus, as Stanton said, it is combo-riffic in many ways.

I think it will hit the meta very nicely, and heavily. It did in the CCG days (although differently worded), and opened up more design space in the 3/2 cost/strength ratio, and 2/3 (which we have very few of really).

@Staton, It could definitely be good in a Targ deck running Dragon Theif to return to hand, and then drop in again after the plot resolves (goodbye chains!).

The big thing I'm wondering is if we'll see a change in builds to run more beefy characters with a slightly higher gold curve, especially with the Knights of the Hollow Hill agenda (which will also be useful for Targ!). And a first turn "First Snow of Winter" out of a Hollow Hill deck could be a really good first turn plot against a Greyjoy choke running Fear of Winter. Followed up by a 2nd turn Rule by Decree? I defintiely agree with Rings though, the plot seems to make the 3/2 cost/strength characters look not so bad, since now the 2/3s are vulnerable to removal as well.

Will be good with Parting Blow and Meera, as well as well as some of the neutral characters that have decent come-into-play effects (discard a card, steal a power, etc.). I'm looking forward to some fun Targ combos with ambush.

Making this a bounce effect rather than discard adds a lot of strategy, since you can build your own deck to take advantage. My one dislike about this card in the CCG era was that it seemed to play out a bit how Valar plays out now...basically it's just a reset that you play if it helps you more than the opponent at any given moment. The new version allows someone to build combo into the deck to take advantage...and if it also happens to hurt the opponent, that's a bonus.

I think we are all missing the important part about this card though. It will drastically increase the average game length. I mean just think of all the jokes that are going to be made at Bruno's expense. The ensuing laughter will make each game last at least an extra minute or two!

Twn2dn said:

Errr.... isn't that point of every playing any card in the game at all?

Kennon said:

trollface.jpg

Twn2dn said:

Errr.... isn't that point of every playing any card in the game at all?

Well, not every card is a "reset," so no. Obviously every card is intended to help the player more than the opponent, but you seem to be missing the important part Kennon

Resets are tricky though, and I personally believe there should be a *real* cost involved to every one...which I don't think there was with the original version First Snow. Similarly, the cost of playing Valar is usually minimal considering the powerful effect it has. (This is why it's basically an auto-include in every competitive build except perhaps Bara rush.) As GJ saves become more consistent, more people run Outwit, and the game in general speeds up, I think Valar could become more risky, though it's difficult to completely balance an effect that kills all characters. If anything, Valar is in the environment because it provides balance to the environment (making control decks stronger, weenie decks/others that would over-extend early on weaker, etc.), that it isn't to say Valar is a perfectly balanced card on its own.

In the CCG era, and the winter block in particular, there were a lot of "weenie decks." I think a lot of people liked First Snow then because it essentially was a crippling blow against a popular but not-particularly-thematic/fun build. In other words, it was a card that balanced the environment rather than adding an element of strategy to any given game. (This is a debatable point, and it's a fine line, but I'm just stating my opinion.)

The reason I am looking forward to this version First Snow is because it will likely have a similar positive impact on the environment as a reset (making 0-2 gold characters more risky) but also adds a very strategic decision to the game. For example, if I bounce all your stuff and then kick the crap out of you during challenges, is that going to force you to Valar next round? If so, is that a good thing so that I can get your Valar out of the way early/when I'm expecting it? Or would I prefer to just get out ahead of you, but not so far ahead that Valar is an attractive option? (Sometimes this is a better strategy if you have few cards in hand.) Alternatively, do I play First Snow to combo effects with my other cards even if it won't do a single thing to the opponent's board position?

The revised First Snow is multi-dimensional, unlike the original version (no offense to Bruno...still a great card either way).

Twn2dn said:

Resets are tricky though, and I personally believe there should be a *real* cost involved to every one...which I don't think there was with the original version First Snow. Similarly, the cost of playing Valar is usually minimal considering the powerful effect it has. (This is why it's basically an auto-include in every competitive build except perhaps Bara rush.) As GJ saves become more consistent, more people run Outwit, and the game in general speeds up, I think Valar could become more risky, though it's difficult to completely balance an effect that kills all characters. If anything, Valar is in the environment because it provides balance to the environment (making control decks stronger, weenie decks/others that would over-extend early on weaker, etc.), that it isn't to say Valar is a perfectly balanced card on its own.

In the CCG era, and the winter block in particular, there were a lot of "weenie decks." I think a lot of people liked First Snow then because it essentially was a crippling blow against a popular but not-particularly-thematic/fun build. In other words, it was a card that balanced the environment rather than adding an element of strategy to any given game. (This is a debatable point, and it's a fine line, but I'm just stating my opinion.)

The reason I am looking forward to this version First Snow is because it will likely have a similar positive impact on the environment as a reset (making 0-2 gold characters more risky) but also adds a very strategic decision to the game. For example, if I bounce all your stuff and then kick the crap out of you during challenges, is that going to force you to Valar next round? If so, is that a good thing so that I can get your Valar out of the way early/when I'm expecting it? Or would I prefer to just get out ahead of you, but not so far ahead that Valar is an attractive option? (Sometimes this is a better strategy if you have few cards in hand.) Alternatively, do I play First Snow to combo effects with my other cards even if it won't do a single thing to the opponent's board position?

The revised First Snow is multi-dimensional, unlike the original version (no offense to Bruno...still a great card either way).

Twn2dn, will this card make you like Jorah a little less? He's going to get hit in the challenge phase, which is a bad time for his ability to go off.

Twn2dn said:

As someone who wasn't around then, can I get some more details on this? I'm curious.

At least there will be three staple in any plot deck: Valar, snow and Decree

I just wish there was something comparable for locations.

It gets a little annoying that you can run 3-5 plots that control characters, and 1.5 for locations (Flee and maybe Assault).

~Well if someone would stay sober long enough to win GenCon again, maybe he could print a new location hate plot for his champion card!

Staton said:

+1

Dang, they need Google+ integration here.

Kennon said:

imrahil327 likes this.

I look forward to playing Dragon Thief and Bloodrider an extra time!

It seems like a strong military deck could use this to bounce an opponent's pleebs then kill the bigger, possibly more expensive/important, Characters during the challenges.

There is just so much tactic and strategic choices that can be made with this plot now. It is not the shotgun blast it used to be, but I find it a much more compelling card now. Excellent job Mathlete!

Staton said:

Agreed.

This is VERY Disappointing to me. It's not that that I hate the bringing back to hand, I just really detest the come into play effects, and this plot is really going to make those cards even more commonplace. I hope we don't see more new come into play effects. I've always much preferred having to win/lose a challenge or dominance in order to trigger something. Just requires more in game decision making IMO. I do NOT want to return to an environment where you can search, easily trigger a come into play effect, return character to your hand, and do it again.

Am I the only one who is unhappy ?

Not only are low cost chars usually low STR being easy victims to Venomous Blade now they will also receive another huge enemy in First Snow+Rule by Decree combo.

Still not sure about the first snow + RBD combo. From personal experience, when there is a weenie deck it will usually dump most of its hand to the table maybe leaving few cards if it needs to survive valar to its hand. On average they have 3-4 weenie characters on table at this moment. Where in a control deck will definitely have more cards in hand and also 1-2 low cost characters (with lannister more as you really need the cheap support characters). Oh man this plot combination will hurt lannister so much it's not even funny...

It will hurt a lot when it hits to over extending weenie player. Especially if they have efficient draw engine.

Definitely an interesting way to use these two plots.

rings said:

I don't see this at all... Fleeing and Assault are obviously in there, but so is Dry Season, so is Burning Bridges, and so is First Rains of Autumn...

michaelius said:

At first I winced a little because some of my decks are very weenie heavy... but then when I thought about it, so is everyone else's deck!! At the minute people seem obsessed with getting great setups and decks are full of refugees and 1 and 2 cost characters, with maybe a couple of expensive finishers. This plot just adds another dimension to the game, and I'm delighted that this is almost a direct buff for Targaryen who can surely make the most of the situation. If one house needed some help it would be Targ.

Annoyingly, I think it helps Martell almost as much, but that's no surprise :S