Forsaken have the Resourceful special ability which states:

SPECIAL ABILITY: RESOURCEFUL
Forsaken are well acquainted with the challenges
of operating alone, chief among them the need for
supplies. The Forsaken gains a +10 to his Infamy Test
when obtaining an item or items with an Availability
of Rare or lower.

So I have two players that are each reading it a different way. One says that lower Availability means harder to get (from Rare to Unique) while the other suggests that an Availability lower than Rare applies on item(s) that are easier to obtain (from Rare to Ubiquitous). The first interpretation is certainly much more useful to the character, as these are the items that are typically harder to get (including ALL Legion items) so the bonus matters much more. Supporting the first view is that the harder items have "lower" modifiers (larger negative values) and show up "lower" on the chart on Table 9-11 (page 306).

I'm likely to run with the first interpretation since I'm pretty player friendly, but how do others play it?

Given that the description says it's about finding supplies, I'd interpret it as being the items that are easier to obtain than

Availability is interchangeable with Rarity for these purposes, and it makes much more sense if you use that term.

Availability of Rare or lower = Rarity of Rare or lower. I.E. you may choose something of rarirty up to and including Rare. This is basically one step lower than the two starting purchases you get, as they can be Very Rare items. This makes sense as the Forsaken has scrounged this extra item up using his ingenuity.

Considering the Forsaken should be a master of scrounging and scavenging rather than a purveyor of the exquisite, I think more readily available goods would become easier to get for him. I'm still not sure how that's a Space Marine ability, though...

I think it's intended to be Rare or lower as in Rare, Scarce, Common etc etc. Aka the sucky version. However, I think the forsaken ability sucks. It gets outdone by a TIER 1 talent available to every character after a few sessions (barring death)! Every other special ability in the game is unique, while the Forsaken gets a watered down version of excessive wealth, which quickly grows more or less pointless since desirable equipment quickly gets rarer than rare.

At the very least, I'd say count it as a straight up +10 to all tests. Honestly, however, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

Resourceful:

Experienced scavengers and masters of the "field acquisition", once per session a Forsaken may automatically pass a acquisition test, as long as the final modifier is no lower than -20. (so -30 would not be allowed, but +10 would be). This count as an acquisition test for all purposes, and is still held to all the same limits.

This still prevents him from walking off with best quality D-dust, but it gets him quick and reliable access to a lot of equipment roughly on par with what a character may start with. Not sure if the final modifier should be bumped up to -30, so as to end up at the same level that the Greed bonus acquisition is at.

I think it's intended to be Rare or lower as in Rare, Scarce, Common etc etc. Aka the sucky version. However, I think the forsaken ability sucks. It gets outdone by a TIER 1 talent available to every character after a few sessions (barring death)! Every other special ability in the game is unique, while the Forsaken gets a watered down version of excessive wealth, which quickly grows more or less pointless since desirable equipment quickly gets rarer than rare

Technically, it doesn't get outdone since it actually stacks with Excessive Wealth.

Other than that, I think I would've liked the trait better if it was on some scum human character rather than a Space Marine. It's a really useful talent for infiltrating where you can't bring along your entire arsenal and will have to resupply on the job.

Experienced scavengers and masters of the "field acquisition", once per session a Forsaken may automatically pass a acquisition test, as long as the final modifier is no lower than -20. (so -30 would not be allowed, but +10 would be). This count as an acquisition test for all purposes, and is still held to all the same limits.

This still prevents him from walking off with best quality D-dust, but it gets him quick and reliable access to a lot of equipment roughly on par with what a character may start with. Not sure if the final modifier should be bumped up to -30, so as to end up at the same level that the Greed bonus acquisition is at.

I'm not sure if I would call the game of "which Good Quality Force Field do I want today?" a balanced one. At the start of the game, Acquisition tests at a +0 are a real challenge and the -10 acquisition is vastly better than anything the PCs will be able to afford in the first few sessions.

Technically, it doesn't get outdone since it actually stacks with Excessive Wealth.

Other than that, I think I would've liked the trait better if it was on some scum human character rather than a Space Marine. It's a really useful talent for infiltrating where you can't bring along your entire arsenal and will have to resupply on the job.

Yes, it stacks. But when your special ability is a watered-down, inferior version of a no-prereqs tier 1 talent, you're kinda getting the short end of the stick. I mean, let's compare it to the other special abilities.

Sorcerers/psykers get access to psychic powers. This advantage is hella hard to get in-game for anybody else, and it grants access to some truly powerful stuff.

Hereteks get ANY good quality implants they want, cheaper cybernetics AND access to special talents and equipment, on top of a loyalty bonus for technical minions.

Apostates get to test their chief stat+skill once per session. If they pass, they get to boost it for a situation they choose, for the remainder of the season. They basically get on the fly access to an entire talent group with no need for purchase.

Champions get one of the most powerful squad boosts in the game. They can provide the rest of the group higher CP infamy point access, AND allow access to Alignment specific or Alignment banned abilities. With a Champion of unique or different alignment in the group, ALL characters get one more alignment power boost and NO alignment locks.

Renegades get to assign a sort of Unnatural characteristic light of their choice to one of their characteristics.

Chosen get to make sure their Zealous Hatred hits where it hurts. Not super awesome, but together with talents and weapons that maximize the chances for ZH, it can be a real killer.

While I can agree it feels a little out of place, there's no denying that ALL other special abilities are unique, hard or impossible to emulate or acquire in play, and useful throughout the entire campaign. The Forsaken power, meanwhile, can be emulated with a 250 xp purchase and comes with a clear best of date after which it becomes almost useless. Because Rare or less is something that eventually will become both easy to get AND less than fantastic.

I'm not sure if I would call the game of "which Good Quality Force Field do I want today?" a balanced one. At the start of the game, Acquisition tests at a +0 are a real challenge and the -10 acquisition is vastly better than anything the PCs will be able to afford in the first few sessions.

Yes, it grants better equipment. However, compared to the sorta stuff the others get, I dunno. It has to be competitive with psychic powers, incredibly potent critical hits, cybernetic cost decreases and the ability to completely negate the Infamy point related downsides of Alignment for the entire group. Might be a bit too potent, but there's no denying that it needs to be improved, far beyond a mere +10.

Unfortunately there isn't much else you could give a Forsaken that doesn't tread on the toes of some other ability, perk or trait already in the game. The only thing i could perhaps think of giving them would be a re-roll on failed aquisitions tests if they can take their time over it (scrounging resources and contacts.)

Yes, it stacks. But when your special ability is a watered-down, inferior version of a no-prereqs tier 1 talent, you're kinda getting the short end of the stick. I mean, let's compare it to the other special abilities.

[snip]

While I can agree it feels a little out of place, there's no denying that ALL other special abilities are unique, hard or impossible to emulate or acquire in play, and useful throughout the entire campaign. The Forsaken power, meanwhile, can be emulated with a 250 xp purchase and comes with a clear best of date after which it becomes almost useless. Because Rare or less is something that eventually will become both easy to get AND less than fantastic.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I can deny that. Psychic powers can be gained by the Mark of Tzeentch. Peer talents can be bought with Experience. Implants (though admittedly not the Mechanicus Implants trait and the implants requiring them) can be acquired. Yes, these abilities usually give something extra, like the free alignment choice of the sorcerer, the flexibility for the Apostate or the Mechanicus-only augmetics of the Heretek, but so does the Forsaken, as when others get a +10 to acquisitions, he gets a +20.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the acquisitions becoming worthless, for a simple reason: Acquisition tests for Rare and easier stuff become hard enough once you're no longer just outfitting yourself, but the warband you invade a planet with. Since you probably won't be able to hand out plasma guns to every one anyway, it would certainly be nice if you essentially got a free upgrade for every single weapon to good quality, since that's what a +10 translates to. Rare acqisitions also directly translate to heavy squad support weapons like an autocannon, a heavy flamer, a missile launcher, all kinds of grenades and non-standard ammunition. I don't know about you, but I would want my invasion troops to be equipped with stuff like that.

Cifer said:

Sadly, I think this works counter to what the Forsaken is supposed to be. He's the individualist even when he's with a warband, so equipping a group seems a bit off. What if this ability wasn't limited by Availability at all, but instead only applied if the Amount is Single or Minor?

Actually, I'm pretty sure I can deny that. Psychic powers can be gained by the Mark of Tzeentch. Peer talents can be bought with Experience. Implants (though admittedly not the Mechanicus Implants trait and the implants requiring them) can be acquired. Yes, these abilities usually give something extra, like the free alignment choice of the sorcerer, the flexibility for the Apostate or the Mechanicus-only augmetics of the Heretek, but so does the Forsaken, as when others get a +10 to acquisitions, he gets a +20.

To gain Psychic powers requires the following: Tzeentch Alignment. A successful infamy roll during a non-failing Gift of the Gods. A roll of 67-78 or 90-100. Even then, it merely grants the psyker trait and a psy rating at best equal to that of a starting sorcerer. It does not grant purchased powers, it does not grant any starting powers and it does not grant the psyscience skill. Psykers and sorcerers get all of that, and for a non-psyker with the mark to gain it, he has to spend a significant amount of experience. A lot more than 250. Twice that for the starting powers alone.

Implants, meanwhile, will always be significantly cheaper and easier to get for Hereteks. There is not bypassing the fact that they get rebates on a lot of very good implants. And, as you mentioned, certain implants require you to be a Heretek. Unique access. The Apostate, meanwhile, doesn't merely get a peer talent. He gets ANY peer talent (at a 2 rating, if he upgrades his fellowship) when he wants it, once per session. That is an insane, unrivaled flexibility that can not be compared to paying 250 xp to gain a fraction of what that power grants.

My point is that where other characters get something better than what's available to other archetypes, the forsaken gets something a little worse. He gets access to excessive wealth with a handicap, where the Apostate gets access to peer on steroids. And the talents, skills and other aspects available to the Forsaken are not nearly impressive enough to justify this downgrade.

Also, I wouldn't worry about the acquisitions becoming worthless, for a simple reason: Acquisition tests for Rare and easier stuff become hard enough once you're no longer just outfitting yourself, but the warband you invade a planet with. Since you probably won't be able to hand out plasma guns to every one anyway, it would certainly be nice if you essentially got a free upgrade for every single weapon to good quality, since that's what a +10 translates to. Rare acqisitions also directly translate to heavy squad support weapons like an autocannon, a heavy flamer, a missile launcher, all kinds of grenades and non-standard ammunition. I don't know about you, but I would want my invasion troops to be equipped with stuff like that.

This I concede is a point, but I still don't feel it's nearly good enough to justify the limits. At the very least, it ought to be a straight up +10. I just can't accept a special ability that works less well than a tier 1 talent available to every single archetype with little trouble. It's too underwhelming for something that usually strongly defines and aids the character.

Sadly, I think this works counter to what the Forsaken is supposed to be. He's the individualist even when he's with a warband, so equipping a group seems a bit off. What if this ability wasn't limited by Availability at all, but instead only applied if the Amount is Single or Minor?

Agreed. It counters the supposed theme of the forsaken, and I think this is a far better limiter than the one currently in place. It enforces a theme AND makes it somewhat closer to the power of the other abilities.

To gain Psychic powers requires the following: Tzeentch Alignment. A successful infamy roll during a non-failing Gift of the Gods. A roll of 67-78 or 90-100. Even then, it merely grants the psyker trait and a psy rating at best equal to that of a starting sorcerer. It does not grant purchased powers, it does not grant any starting powers and it does not grant the psyscience skill. Psykers and sorcerers get all of that, and for a non-psyker with the mark to gain it, he has to spend a significant amount of experience. A lot more than 250. Twice that for the starting powers alone.

You are aware that one can also get a Mark by taking twenty aligned advances and being five advances ahead of every other deity?

Implants, meanwhile, will always be significantly cheaper and easier to get for Hereteks. There is not bypassing the fact that they get rebates on a lot of very good implants. And, as you mentioned, certain implants require you to be a Heretek. Unique access. The Apostate, meanwhile, doesn't merely get a peer talent. He gets ANY peer talent (at a 2 rating, if he upgrades his fellowship) when he wants it, once per session. That is an insane, unrivaled flexibility that can not be compared to paying 250 xp to gain a fraction of what that power grants.

Yes, they get better versions (though technically, the Apostate can lose access to his Special Ability for the entire session by failing the appropriate Charm/Deceive check). But then again, the Forsaken's Resourceful is better than Excessive Wealth as well, since Excessive Wealth doesn't stack with itself.

@HappyDaze

Sadly, I think this works counter to what the Forsaken is supposed to be. He's the individualist even when he's with a warband, so equipping a group seems a bit off. What if this ability wasn't limited by Availability at all, but instead only applied if the Amount is Single or Minor?

It does sound somewhat contra-intuitive, but after a little bit of thinking about it, I'd say it kinda fits: With your own star rising, you can only be a "rebel" for so long - think Han Solo the smuggler turning into General Solo. Sooner or later, you'll have to maintain underlings in order to grow even more powerful. And at that point, you notice that the talents that brought you where you are now have a new application: Getting some gear for your new minions.

That said, upgrading the bonus to +20 (or turning it into a free reroll) might be in order.

You are aware that one can also get a Mark by taking twenty aligned advances and being five advances ahead of every other deity?

I am, though I honestly didn't think of it at the time. Still, even if all you do is buy skills (the cheapest advance, no?) That's 4000 xp. To get a shot at getting what the psyker gets. Far cry from 250.

Yes, they get better versions (though technically, the Apostate can lose access to his Special Ability for the entire session by failing the appropriate Charm/Deceive check). But then again, the Forsaken's Resourceful is better than Excessive Wealth as well, since Excessive Wealth doesn't stack with itself.

The apostate gains no benefit for an entire session. Like a Forsaken does when he's in situations that don't allow acquisition tests, which can often, in my experience, last for more than one session. And even when they are allowed, they're often limited by the world/situation he's in. No chests full of lasguns on a feral world with nothing but savages hurling rocks, after all. And to be precise, you can't resourceful twice, so it doesn't stack with itself either But sure, a forsaken who buys excessive wealth is better off than any other archetype who does the same. However, a forsaken who doesn't is WORSE OFF than any other archetype who does. Still strikes me as **** iffy.

It does sound somewhat contra-intuitive, but after a little bit of thinking about it, I'd say it kinda fits: With your own star rising, you can only be a "rebel" for so long - think Han Solo the smuggler turning into General Solo. Sooner or later, you'll have to maintain underlings in order to grow even more powerful. And at that point, you notice that the talents that brought you where you are now have a new application: Getting some gear for your new minions.

That said, upgrading the bonus to +20 (or turning it into a free reroll) might be in order.

I can agree with that fluff transition. And the upgrades. Hell, turning it into a +20 with no magnitude OR rarity limits AND a free reroll wouldn't strike me as excessively unfair.

I might just run it as a simple reroll when testing Infamy to obtain items or services. There will be no restrictions on Availability and it will also apply to tests to obtain services, making it quite a bit more useful for a guy that operates on his own and needs to call in favors.

Note: Yes, the book calls it Attaining Items, but it really should be Obtaining Items.

HappyDaze said:

It does seem to be the easiest solution.

HappyDaze said:

Aye, it's Reach vs Get. I notice a lot of these kinds of issues with 40k products, but i think a lot of that is the split between English and American authors.