Hi,

I have just received an official answer from Nate regarding the timing issues that have been debated here and on BGG forums, regarding when a quest or combat are considered as resolved, if they allow player actions before Forced effects and if they allowed combos like Meneldor/Vassal or Born Aloft/Escort.

These are my questions, followed by Nate's answers, verbatim:

1) When a card says "Forced: After X attacks...", the FAQ says this should be applied at the end of step 4. The rules also say that "Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step". Does the Forced effect occur after or before the player actions? In other words, is the player action window part of a step (and "before" its end) or separate and after the "end" of that step?

A: Since Forced effects occur "immediately, whenever their specified prerequisite occurs," they take priority at the end of step 4. All Forced effects should resolve before players have the option to take actions.

2) W hen a card says "Forced: After an attack in which X attacked/defended resolves", does that mean after or before the player action window that is allowed at the end of step 4 of an enemy attack (or the step 3 of the player attack)? In other words, when is an attack considered as "resolved"? This is very important, because if we can play before the combat is resolved, this would allow us to return Vassal of the Windlord or Winged Guardian using Meneldor's Flight before their Forced Response is played. Is that possible?

A: The attack resolves at the conclusion of the final step, so again, Forced effects should occur before players have a chance to take actions.

3) There is a very similar question for the Quest phase: when a card says "Forced: After resolving a quest to which X was committed...". When is a quest considered as "resolved"? Is there is a player action window at the end of step 3 before the quest is considered as resolved? Similarly to the above case, this would allow to return Escort from Edoras to hand using a player action before its Forced response is played.

A: The quest resolves at the conclusion of its final step. Forced effects should resolve before player player actions.

4) In the player attack sequen ce, since it is possible to play actions after calculating attack strength in step 2, what happens if an attacker is returned to the hand between step 2 and 3 (e.g. Vassal of the Windlord)? Is the attack strength reduced? If yes, why is attack strength calculated in step 2 and then damage applied in step 3? Why interrupting the player attack sequence that way, whereas in the case of enemy attacks, attack strength calculation and damage allocation are part of the same step?

A: The first line of step 3 reads, "This is done by subtracting the target enemy's defense STR from the combined attack STR of all the attacking characters." If an attacking character leaves play before this calculation, it will not be present to contribute to the calculation.

The main reason for breaking the initial determination into its own step is to give players a chance take actions or play event cards if they add up their attack and realize they need to buff STR to do what they wanted to accomplish. Players who are not as familiar with these types of games might think that such cards have to be played before adding things up, and the basic rulebook was written to try and make this procedure as easy as possible for novice players.

The difference between player attacks and the game attacks is that the game plays its "buff" cards automatically (the Shadow cards), so it doesn't need the same type of pause to add everything up and consider the result that is built in for players.

- Nate French

So to summarise:

• Player's actions are not "allowed at the end of each step" as written in the rules, but after (or between) each step. Furthermore, combat is resolved at the end of step 4 of an enemy attack or at the end of step 3 of a player attack. Then Player actions are allowed, but Forced effects must be played before that! Similarly, quest is considered as resolved at the end of step 3 of the Quest phase, but before the player action window. Therefore Meneldor/Vassal or Born Aloft/Winged Guardian/Escort end-of-phase-rescue combos are not valid combos!
  EDIT: afterthoughts: that is one interpretation of the turn sequence. Another interpretation, closer to the original rule book, is to allow indeed player actions at the end of each step, but that the last step of combat/quest is when it is resolved. Thus player actions are allowed, but Forced effects take precedence to actions when triggered. Resolution does not occur at the end of the phase, it is the last step!
  
• It also means that "Forced: After X attacks..." and "Forced: After an attack in which X attacked/defended resolves..." are resolved with the same timing! I thought the latter - convoluted? - way was to really make a distinction.

• In the player attack sequence, although the attack strength is calculated in step 2, it is recalculated in step 3, considering new or on the contrary, removed attackers. Again, if Vassal is rescued by Meneldor between steps 2 and 3 of player attack (I assume this is valid in that case, since the attack is not resolved), then its attack strength is not added anymore to the damage total!

• Nate will talk to marketing to produce a more detailed turn sequence in the next FAQ.

Again, many thanks to Nate for clarifying the timing issues, and take his time to do a very comprehensive answer!

Thanks for sharing!

HilariousPete said:

No problem. I really appreciated Nate's answer, and the comments regarding the motivations behing the player attack sequence design, very interesting.

Thanks for tracking this information down, Zeb.

I had some thoughts about the rule book and see where the confusion comes from.

Actually, each step allows player actions at its end, and the last step of combat or questing sequence corresponds to it being resolved. Each step is a mixed bag of specific rules (such as strength or willpower calculations) followed by Player Actions and also Forced responses. By rule Forced takes precedence on all voluntary Responses and Actions, therefore are played in priority at the end of the step they are triggered. (The only correction needed is the fact that player actions should be allowed before the start of step 1 of Quest phase, because "We do not Sleep" would not work.).

I think Nate did not realise that a lot of players would misinterpret that the resolution of a quest or a combat be a specific timepoint in the turn sequence, at the very end of the phase, adding a supplementary step for Forced effects after they play actions. It all comes down to some ambiguity in the language actually.

Thus Nate has the possibility to clarify the turn sequence by possibly renaming the phases, or rewrite it using more separate action windows and indicate when quest/combat resolution occurs.

I'm not at all surprised about the answer on forced responses, as the alternative made little sense to me. Thank you for the information!

Titan said:

This is also how I interpreted the rules initially. However, I reckon there was some ambiguity in the "resolved" word, which is not really defined by the rules. It could have been interpreted as a time point corresponding to the end of phase, after player actions had been played and thus Forced effects could have happened after actions. Actually it is the last step (of attack or quest phase), therefore Forced effects precede player actions.