ak-73 said:

Nevertheless, yes, the Apothecary does at least have use of his other hand, but I'd say it would be more limited than an arm that doesn't have a Reductor slapped onto it. The point I'm making is that I've never considered a Apothecary a 'melee specialist'. They are generalists and play a different role within the Kill-Team. Aside from Ultramarine Librarians no one can heal anyone else, and that's a big deal, enough to make them a very useful thing to have around. The only character type with greater utility (not power - utility) aside from the Librarian is the Wolf Priest, who can do both the Chaplain's job and the Apoth's job.

I know you've dedicated threads to your desire to see Apoths get buffed, but like a lot of people here I just don't see the need.

That said, I agree with you on the Servo-Arm. The Deathwatch game we played two sessions back (using that wonderful book that's about to come out that everyone should buy the moment it goes on sale) the Tech-Marine in our group was a powerhouse of destruction with that Servo-Arm. He made mincemeat of just about everything, especially the rear armour of a Hammerhead.

BYE

I found that part of the movie actually enlightening. It's only fitting that the medic of super-human soliders can use both hands when needed. And I was always under the impression of Apothecaries being more choppy due to Chainsword or the occasional Bolt pistol. Kinda like the guy who comes in after the first wave, tears enemies strategically apart and then patches up his brothers.

(Writing this I have an idea for a potential Apothecary Advanced Specialty: Xeno Biologist, including the ability to hurt xenos at strategic locations -> called shots/strikes get Felling(1) or additional damage or something like that. Might detract from the core business of healing marines and preserving the progenoids a bit though.)

Anyway my purpose here isn't to push anyone to make any official changes; that is of the lowest importance to me because I am quick to house rule where I consider it necessary and that's that then. However I'd like to have some freedback (which wasn't all that much so far :sadface:) on the proposed changes from "pro-gamers" here; plus if anyone feels similarly about the Apo, they'll have an inspiration for what can be done.

Alex

I consider the Apothecary (from the RPG perspective) melee based since he has a cheap advance category in WS and has more than a few melee related talents (with the extra lighting attack unlike most specialties) and zero shooting talents. At some point the Apothecary has to consider what he is spending his xp on, so unless he spends xp on elite davances he is going to be looking at those melee talents.

Okay, first let it be said that I might have the least XP of anyone posting on this thread; I love me some 40k, but only have 12ish books of three of the main games, and haven't gotten to play any in them. That being said, please bear with me as I try to explain my thoughts?

It's sort of sad when the best of the best that the Imperium has to offer MUST only be relegated to ONLY combat (especially when SMs in 40k are often portrayed as intelligent warrior philosophers, at least when compared to the hillbilly redneck "Space Marines" in something like Starcraft, and have gifted skill Marines, psykers, and techpriest among their ranks), but it appears that this thread, at least, is ONLY interested in the combat ability of any and every Space Marine, seeing as they will never be called upon to do anything else. An Apothecary might not shine in combat, or at least close combat, as well as his Techmarine or Assault Marine brothers, and that's probably for the best; a combination of "do no harm/hypocratic oath" (that I know Apothecaries don't take ) and holding back, waiting for injuries we hope never happen to pile up is nice, but that might also be so that the aforementioned "more combaty" Marines can be more combat-oriented, without jacking them up even more, and still making it look like the Apo lags in such a field, because he's paying for other skills.

I played a game of d20 homebrew 40k RPG before this system got invented, and remember not having a medic in our 4-man squad at the start, and it stung. What we did was multi-task a character. Our, for lack of a better term, Tactical Marine (our squad leader) had the best stuff to branch into healing, between him, our Dev Marine, a teched up Inq-trained Sniper, and me, the Grey Knight serving an Inquisitor NPC, so he grabbed the skill training for it, "requisitioned" a Narthecium, and became our Medic, too. He spent most of his time up on a hill we were behind, making strategies, and using leadership-based augments to boost the group, then we charged in, did the fighting as we do (I GKed, he charged with me, being good at assault, the dev provided covering fire with his trusted h. bolter, and the sniper was already off, in a strategic point, waiting to pick off critical targets as we exposed/created them), and patched us up after fact, as needed (and we ALWAYS did). The point of this little babble is, if you think that the Apothecary is a bit boring, or underpowered, since ALL he is really there for is medical treatment, maybe have him buy some Elite Advances, and give him a second role, whether primary or secondary, to occupy the rest of his time. If you don't think that the Apothecary is worth it, as is, have a player build something more to your/their liking, and pay a bit to get them the Medicae skill, and the tech to use it, and then the limits to the class you see aren't a problem.

The way I see it, this system WANTS characters who aren't all equal, even in the same system. In DH, for instance, one might find it hard to convince anyone to really want to play an Adept/Sage. They aren't great in combat, probably won't absorb much for damage, risk learning things they need to die over, and are really only useful in skill use, and skill use they planned for (this is just one interp of the class, of course). Compared to a Guardsman, who is their combat god, and probably poor at anything else, he seems less fun. Even with a combat emphasis, DW should be no different. Apothecaries and Techmarines shouldn't maybe be as good in CC as Assualt Marines and kitted Librarians; that's what makes them different, and they are paying equal points for their own, specialized skills. In a scenario that isn't combat, however, if there are any in DW, that same Apothecary could prove to be very important, say if the party encountered some xeno plague that is affecting a community, or if the Assault Marine got the worst part of a genestealer shoved up his... In that case, the Apothecary can shine, and save him from a life with the Nids, or a bolter shot to the head. Meanwhile, the Dev Marine will be useless if they find some piece of important tech, or need to ascertain if something psychic has occurred in the area; it's a balance between things, as I'm sure you know. Might an Apo lag in combat? Yes, because he's for after-combat, and probably want to avoid it, so he can patch up the others who fight.

Okay, I've rambled on, at length, and if you've gotten this far without feeling I was only saying crap you already know (you've actually PLAYED this game before), I will try to judge the changes you wanted, as best as I can.

Peer: It's probably fine, but I've often failed to see its use beyond DH Ascension, where it and Good Rep get the nice boost for Influence checks, which SMs don't have to make. If you have Fellowship-based rolls you expect them to make, it's certainly not breaking anything to give it to them. Seeing as every DW rep is like a special among the SMs, I don't see why they wouldn't just get it.

LMS: You are grabbing a Talent that nicely augments a good, holding back Apo, but were fighting for his Assault spec, which this doesn't really help.

Flesh Render: I don't know if I could justify this. It seems tailor-made for Assault Marines, and barring an errata, or a later-published source, they NEVER get it, and must EA to acquire it. Looks like Apo are the ONLY spec that even have it on a list, meaning that they are the only ones to nt need an EA to pick it up. It seems hardly fair to let them get it so early, when everyone else will pay more, and probably later. Maybe I just missed it on another tree, but I don't believe so. Nothing says they can't EA it earlier, like everyone else will. If they want it, I say let them get it that way (maybe EA for 1000 xp), too, or wait.

Jaded: Not to say that an Apo hasn't seen things that would freeze a lesser man's soul, but ALL of his BBs have, right along with him. Still, I suppose no problem there.

Wisdom of the Ancients: Feels a bit more Librarian or TM, but I suppose it could depend on the question presented. That said, I see no real problem, here.

Stalwart Defense: No real problem. I can imagine an Apo huddled over a charge, say an injured Inquisitor, or even one of his Battle Brothers, trying his damnedest to fend off little Nids, while stabilizing his downed friend, suing himself as a shield. An ability that let him also absorb hits for such an ally would also be nice, there. I can definitely see the selfless Apothecary, ready to die that his brothers might succeed, having this talent.

Duty Unto Death: I like this, and being the medic-minded individual, I could see an Apo getting this one. My only thought against it is, by this point (Rank 8), anyone should have anything they want, via EAs. Sneaking in useful Talents is helpful early, but later, it almost doesn't matter what the progression nets you; you have the XP to grab virtually anything you want, via EA, unless the GM denies it, and can tailor the character as you wish. No problem with it, but yeah.

So, over the adjustments you postulated, I'd overall say nice, and not bad. My only complaint is that Flesh Render. If EVERY other character, even the more combat oriented ones, HAS to get it by EA, either the Apo should, too, or they can wait till the end. While I often envision the Apo in my mind with a chainsword, I'd rather he hold back, shooting, and be in good form to get me back to good form.

Buliwyf Hagnarsson said:

As an offnote, which book, if any, gives rules for modifying weapons, as you might be describing? It might be nice to just say such a kitted weapon exists, and req it, but if your Techmarine could tweak one for a group member, partly in game, at least (I know some mods could take some time), that could be cool, sort of like how it says they make Art. Armor. Being able to modify their trusty Servo Arm so that it mounts a power field generator (assuming it doesn't already, for that Pen; the Ascen one, doesn't) would be cool, too me, and go toward the TT's description of how it functions "like a Power Fist". Tweaking the Tac. Marine's SigWgr plasma pistol so that it never overheats could be nifty, too. Especially with a fellow players' sig gear, since they are keeping it forever, such an ability could be fun, in game, and could help said gear stay caught up, as things continue, sort of like Sig Wargear (Master), possibly even explaining, in game, how the potential upgrades got there.

Lastly, as I've flipped through the books, I've felt that, were I to play this game as PC, I'd want to play either an Apo or Librarian. If I went to the Apo side, a thought I had was to eventually get Signature Wargear (Diagnostor Helmet). It seems a nice bit for an Apothecary to have, it's useful, costs just about right for the talent, and such. Has anyone done so for their Apothecary? Feel it's worth it? What's the opinion on XP points vs Requisition each mission over it? Thanks much.

venkelos said:

Not entierly, but the game is very combat heavy, and in a combat heavy setting and system, it helps to not be the crappiest one on the field and feel left out a lot. No one has said there aren't really cool RP opportunities with the Apothecary, it's just his time to shine is often limeted to 'hey, I healed you! yay!' or only outside of combat. It's the same if you allow an Inquisitor or non-Astartes into the party, the GM now has to juggle and make sure each character has time to shine.

venkelos said:

That was a derailment, I think. AK, and others, are fighting for some improvements to the class to make them more appealing and have a better sense of balance. Personally I think this talent is perfect for an Apothecary. The immunity to suppression means he can get to his fallen comrades and duck while he fixes them. May not make him 'moar choppy!' but it makes him more Apothecary

venkelos said:

The trick I see with Flesh Render is that it's good, but it's not great. It adds a tearing die to your roll, so you add something like 8% to the chance to deal RF, and you increase your average damage a smidge. I don't disagree that it seems like AMs would pick it up - it does seem perfect for them. But then again AM's have a LOT of good stuff and are killing machines already, and picking up flesh render isn't that big a deal (especailly when they start carrying force swords/axes, etc).

venkelos said:

Jaded is a wierd one, I agree. I think this would have to fit within the GM's description of things. If they're applying IPs because of witnissing certain things like tyranid hive ships or digestion pools, it might come in handy. If they're not..well, not much to worry with.

venkelos said:

Well the problem with EAs is in many games you have to justify picking it up, and justifying one EA can be difficult, let alone a dozen. The advancement tables are there, IMO, to represent the training and general talents of the given specailty. EAs are there for standouts, and as a GM I personally require my players to provide a good reason as to why they should be able to get them, and often times RP at least some aspect of attaining it.

In addition, it's not been my experience that players have had a ton of XP laying about to 'play' with.

What about dodge or step aside as added talents? It seems like adding those might add to the survivability of the Apothecary in ranged incidents. But then again, tactical advance and last man standing might have that covered well enough.

I don't personally know- I give out XP based on a rate of about 100 per hour played, and that doesn't always relate to the requisition for a given mission. I don't like giving XP out for mission objectives very much.