Okay it happened: a player of mine has announced that he's going to make an apothecary. Some may know that I consider the specialty lacklustre by RAW and intend to make it more exciting for players. Prequels to this thread can be found here (it has become a nevending story, eh?):

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=399984&efpag=0
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=444210&efpag=0

So here's the current plan:

Peer (Astartes) - free at Rank 1
Last Man Standing - 500xp at Rank 1
Flesh Render - 800xp moved from Rank 8 to Rank 2 (at Rank 8? Srsly FFG?)
Jaded - 300xp at Rank 3
Wisdom of the Ancients - 1,000 at Rank 4
Stalwart Defence - 800 at Rank 5
Duty Unto Death - 1,000 at Rank 8

Wow, that is some significant change/improvement, right? To me, it'd make the class worthwhile, would make feel excited playing an Apothecary, he looks now as appealing (going by the advances) as other specialties. Without making me as GM feel he'd overshadow any of the other specialties (he isn't a minmaxed combat choice still). He's going to be tough, wise, fearless, respected. Just what you want out of the specialty and the advances reflect that now.

Also I consider throwing Lightning Attack out of the window and replacing it with Two Weapon Wielder talents.

I'd like to hear your input, folks.

Alex

As melee specialists should receive Swift Attack at rank 2 at the latest...

Santiago said:

That would be faster than the Librarian. I would give ti to them at Rank 3 and Lightning Attack at 7, just to make them the same. As for Duty unto Death I woudl make that avilable much sooner like at rank 2 or 3 considering the gravity of their task.

Why is an Apothecary a 'melee specialist' all of a sudden?

We've had several Apothecaries in our games. We've never had a problem with them. The only change we've ever made is that each DoS on a Medicae Test also heals one more wound (so rolling well actually means something).

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

They are not melee specialists but more often choppy than shooty due to chainsword and/or bolt pistol rather than bolter. So I am fine with Swift Attack, Lightning Attack might be a bit too good for my taste. Especially since TWW is now generally available at rank 7 due to the errata, this makes Apothecaries into combat beasts - but only at rank 7+. One of the reasons why I might throw out Lighning Attack and have TWW available earlier. Swift Attack + TWW = quite decent, especially if I put in Flesh Render early plus Stalwart Defence.

As for Duty Unto Death, I consider that a very undercosted talent and it is the perfect fill-in after moving Flesh Render to early rank. Practically part of the epitome of Apothecary service.

Alex

Why not just mesh the apothecary speciality with assault marine? That should fix it! /endsarcasm

The only reason anyone would consider apothecaries melee centric, is the TT ruleset is heavily biased in power level to melee. So most of the apothecary characters are kitted out to cater to the current metagame.

In reality (fluffity anyways) they are space marines, and space marines prefer to use their bolters in most instances. Yes there are melee specialists in space marine chapters... emphasis on specialists. Even in the year 40,000 most armies still prefer to shoot their enemies though. I don't see why any chapter would encourage its apothecaries, the ones who tend wounded and collect the vitally important genesee, to run up to enemies where they can as easily smack the apothecaries as the apothecaries can smack them. (Well except the Blood Angels who do so due to the chapter's combat tactics, and have their own advanced speciality to represent this fact.)

herichimo said:

Right, but that's where a ton of inspiration for the actuall specialties comes from, not from logic. You could put a spin on it, if you like, that the apothecary has to help everyone in the field, including those in hand to hand with the enemy. If he's not good at hand to hand, he'll get cut to pieces in the front of combat.

I think AK is onto something here, as it is I find the Apothecaries very middle of the road. They can be a great asset to a Kill Team due to their healing - and great RP potential given their honored position- but that's about it. I don't know that adding flesh render earlier is really going to make them beasts. It's an incremental increase in damage, and only with chain weapons. Stalwart Defense is good, but even devestators can pick that up and I've found so far anyone *without* things like that will get chopped to pieces very quickly with any competent hand to hand enemy.

What traits would you give them to balance them out? Would you see them get shootier talents, different skill groups, or leave them as is? The one thing I worry about with this tweak is this is 'one more' class that goes with melee, leaving really the devestator and tactical as the shooters, and everyone else trying to charge in.

Charmander said:

Assault - choppy
Techmarine - rather choppy
Apothecary - more choppy than shooty, especially with this changes - although I have seen Apothecaries with Heavy Bolters.
Librarian - due to Smite and Avenger being so good, it's actually balanced. The librarian is an all-around powerhouse normally and before he gets a second attack definitely more shooty.
Tactical - more shooty before getting additional attacks (so only late in the career somewhat balanced)
Devastator - shooty

Alex

ak-73 said:

A fair point, the Librarian does do well as both, and can afford to pick up some nice weapons seeing his force sword comes for free. My librarian loves to blow enemies up with said force sword rather than shoot them, so my experience is definitely slanted

Well I still play a BA Librarian in The Russian's game, so that's all I need to say about that topic, I guess.

Alex

Techmarines do melee? What did I miss?

I think apothecaries are much better off shooting. Half-assed melee is asking for trouble imo.

Morangias said:

Their Servo-Arm/Harness, including their inability to carry backpacks?

Alex

ak-73 said:

Curious to know how the inability to carry backpacks automatically disqualifies them from being less ranged-centered and more melee. Is it the belief that without a backpack ammunition supply and a heavy bolter, one cannot be a ranged combatant?

Personally, I'd kill to see a Techpriest carry a Bolter with the Felling property that he upgraded with greater stopping power and a plasma pistol that doesn't over-heat. Smacks of technological greatness there (with some help of the RoB Specialty, of course).

So, absolute lack of melee-related Talents vs more problems with carrying ammo... and he's still considered more choppy than shooty? I find that odd, to say the least.

Morangias said:

No, I said he's got a Servo-Arm. Which means he can dish out an additional high S attack, especially against hordes who typically will find it hard to hurt him and which he can't parry anyway. He's going to charge them, unless he's got a heavy bolter perhaps. Against Elite enemies, he can weather their melee damage better than others and he has a higher chance of wounding them with his Servo-Arm unless he's got special ranged weapons requisitioned. 2d10+14 Pen 10 is good. As a potentially additional attack it is also good. He also has access to cheap S and T which will be an additional incentive to go melee when opportunity beckons. He can't deal with melee specialists though, no.

I have a Storm Warden Techmarine in my party and he's choppy, definitely. That chapters tend to be more choppy increases the propensity for the Techmarine, as well as Apothecary and Librarian. Less so for Devastators and Tacticals. Assault is choppy anyway.

Also, have you guys ever explored the possibilities of grappling?

Alex

Sacrificing a Reaction to get two attacks per turn doesn't make him choppy in my book, nor are the mostly inconsequential bonuses he can get from Chapter advances. Even if this extra attack can deal significant damage, and even if I'm the toughest guy around (which I agree, the Techmarine is - the amount of damage this guy can take is ridiculous), that's still a very subpar option compared to taking a good ranged weapon and going to town. And it's not like you can't install some cool ranged weapons on those servo-arms to utilize that extra attack from safe distance, preferably behind cover as well.

ak-73 said:

Apothecary - more choppy than shooty, especially with this changes - although I have seen Apothecaries with Heavy Bolters.

Both the Apoths in our games are snipers. And how would they fight with two weapons in an effective manner when one hand is taken up by the Reductor?

BYE

@HBMC: The Apothecary can use both hands for combat. See the Ultramarines movie where he holds the Boltgun with both hands.

Ask yourself if your Assault Marine wants to be at the end of a Servo-Arm Killing Strike. You can expect to receive 2d10+6 net damage from that attack alone. Of course you can't parry the regular attack neither. That's without Servo-Harness or improved quality. Not too shabby.

The only problem of the Servo-Harness is that it doesn't scale with rank. Early ranks it is good though and usually superior to the ranged weapons that the Techmarine can request at low ranks (=low renown). At higher ranks the picture looks a bit different, I guess.

...I think I just discovered a new combo of doom.

Alex

ak-73 said:

An average Rank 1 Marine has 20-21 Wounds. With 2d10+6 net damage, your average roll leaves me standing on low but positive Wounds, and your max roll (disregarding Righteous Fury) only puts me at, what, -3 Crit max (remember, Crits are halved)? While that's no mean feat, by all means, you've just spent a Fate Point to most likely _not_ incapacitate me, and that means you're getting chopped up by my 3-4 attacks.

That's against a starting Assault. Try the same on a Tyranid Warrior.

ak-73 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Care to rephrase?

Killing Strike means all my attacks for the round become indefensible. So I make a regular attack on your Assault Marine with, let's say my Claymore, followed up by a Servo-Arm attack ASAP and suddenly your Assault Marine doesn't look that good anymore, run the numbers. If you strike back, I can try to parry all your attacks if I have a Stalwart Defence prepared (yes another fate point and yes you can try Killing Strike too but it is still nasty). Even if you get me to Crit Damage, I can ignore the effects thanks to Duty Unto Death. And chances are I can go first if I am in Squad Mode.

Yes, I am not talking a generic Techmarine here but a Storm Warden one. Might explain why my view on Techmarines might be slanted, as my party has a Storm Wardewn Tech. Storm Warden Techmarines can be quite nasty in melee. And as aforementioned, charging into hordes with regular charge attack, Servo-Arm and Thunder Charge is also quite good (=very good) against hordes for a fairly low-rank character.

Alex

PS Did we deviate off-topic?

Okay, so you can kill or incapacitate a starter level Assault Marine... with a very specific non-starter level Techmarine, based mostly on Chapter-specific Advancements, and no more than 5 times per game session, and that's assuming you were exceedingly lucky while rolling the character and save up all your precious Fate Points for maximum efficiency in melee.

That's hardly what I'd consider a melee-oriented build. You just can't keep up the performance against groups of elites, not to mention bosses. You have no sustainable defensive capability either, so you're a skirmisher at best.

...yes, I do believe we've gotten off-topic.

If you ask me, all the Apothecary needs is Stalwart Defense so that when push comes to shove, he can fight tooth and nail over the body of his Battle Brother. Other than that, I find them quite okay.

All you need to be half decent at shooting is mighty shot and bolter drill (take them as elite advances). Put some points in ballistic skill, get a storm bolter as signature gear and some funky bolt shells with requisition. You could do all this by Rank 2.

Max out BS = 5000

Mighty Shot as Elite advance = 1250 approx

Bolter Drill as Elite advance = 1550 approx

Signature Gear = 500

To be good at melee you need about eight talents, and maxed out weapon skill, strength, toughness, agility, some kind of master level signature weapon ect.

So it's much more min/max to do the shooting path.

Morangias said:

The question is what you call a choppy build then. (For what it's worth the build I have presented kills non-starter level Assault Marines just the same, the only protection against it coming from force fields or perhaps Terminator armour.) Nothing compares to an Assault Marine here. The Techmarine at earlier ranks is choppier than Tactical Marines, Devastators, Apothecaries. The Librarian is only choppier if he manages to channels force. This leaves him tied at second rank with the librarian for choppiest. Period. Librarian takes the second place at rank 3 when he gets Swift Attack. Apothecary gets Swift Attack at Rank 6. Thus the Techmarine becomes less choppy in relation to his peers as the team advances.

When it comes to groups of Elites or Master-level tier enemies, nobody but a middle to high rank Assault Marine (or Advanced Specialties) should bother. In fact against Daemon Princes or Hive Tyrants everyone better prepare for burning fate who dares to enter melee.

Techmarine remains a rather choppy specialty early on. Gets less effective in melee later on, compounded by the growing availablity of better ranged weapons.

Alex

Useless board software... I'll try another post.