if i have this guy (leyton) in play, and my opponent has a frozen solid on another of my characters, and i use a link/old nan to give the frozen character the maester trait, can i invoke the 'frozen' characters abilities until the end of the phase when the gained maester trait wears off? im guessing probably not since the frozen was already active but i thought id ask just to be sure.

if i have this guy (leyton) in play, and my opponent has a frozen solid on another of my characters, and i use a link/old nan to give the frozen character the maester trait, can i invoke the 'frozen' characters abilities until the end of the phase when the gained maester trait wears off? im guessing probably not since the frozen was already active but i thought id ask just to be sure.

Seeing as you can't attach frozen solid to characters, I think the rest of the question is moot.

But let's assume you meant Milk of the Poppy. If you Copper Linked Maester onto a card that had Milk of the Poppy attached, it would gain Leyton's lasting effect. Seeing as all blanking abilities only ever blank the printed text box and not gained abilities, the newly-minted Maester would indeed be immune to attachments and thus restore all of its abilities. Whether or not the attachment was already active is immaterial, as the gained immunity de-activates it.

Frozen Solid only goes on locations and attachments. How did you get it on a character?

BUT: If a character of yours gains the Maester trait, it will ignore the effects of any opponent's attachments already on it if Hightower is in play.

touche. for purposes of this question though lets pretend that character was immobilized for some other legal reason. would adding the trait, and thus gaining the temporary immunity work? or does the previously added effect trump anything new entering the situation? (maybe it is a motley or stinking drunk instead).

touche. for purposes of this question though lets pretend that character was immobilized for some other legal reason. would adding the trait, and thus gaining the temporary immunity work? or does the previously added effect trump anything new entering the situation? (maybe it is a motley or stinking drunk instead).

dh098017 said:

May I just say, holy **** FFG worst message board interface ever .

From the FAQ i found the passage that supports the answers I have received. However can someone give an example of the first situtaion below, where immunity would not provide protection from a lasting duration effect?

(3.18) Timing of Immunity
Immunity is only considered when a triggered
effect (or a passive ability) first resolves. A
card cannot gain immunity to a triggered effect
(or a passive ability) with a lasting duration
once that effect has first resolved.

Constant abilities are constantly affecting a
card, and immunity from a constant ability
can be acquired at any time and cut off that
ability's effect

Let's say Meera Reed's ability. If a character is blanked because of her, he cannot be "unblanked" if an "immune to character abilities" is applied to him after he has been blanked by Meera Reed.

Or, here's an interesting one for you:

Three player game: You have Leyton Hightower out and Opponent #1 has put Milk of the Poppy on your Red Viper. Opponent #2 uses his Copper Link to give your Red Viper the Maester trait. Milk of the Poppy is a constant effect, so when TRV gains the Maester trait, the immunity to attachments from Hightower kicks in and he ignores Opponent #1's Milk of the Poppy.

However, since TRV is now immune to opponent's attachments, shouldn't he be immune to Opponent #2's Copper Link and lose the trait - thereby losing the immunity, etc.? No. Because the effect of Copper Link is, at this point, an "until the end of the phase" lasting effect. Paradox aside, you cannot gain immunity and retroactively ignore a lasting effect that came from a triggered or passive effect. Effectively, you cannot ignore the past (while ignoring Milk of the Poppy's continuous effect is ignoring the present).

excellent ty, i just need to mentally separate lasting from constant.

ktom said:

And what about if the Red Viper is Immune to opponents character ability?

Milk of the poppy is clearing the text box. Copper link gives Maester trait. Hightower gives immunity against attachments, but as soon as it gives immunity to Milk of the poppy due to being TRV a Maester, TRV immunity to opponents character ability instantly nullifies Hightower ability.

So it means TRV textbox remains empty but will have the Maester trait?

Yes. That is true. I should have just said "generic, bad-ass, important character."

Miklos said:

TRV is immune to character abilities. Basically it goes into an infinite loop of checking.

Is TRV blanked by Milk of the Poppy? Yes.

Now you give the TRV the Maester trait somehow.

Now Hightower's "immune to opponent's attachments" can apply.

Now Milk of the Poppy is no longer in effect.

Now TRV's "immune to character abilties" can apply.

Now Hightower's "immune to opponent's attachments" can't apply.

Milke of the Poppy comes back into play.

I think that due to this infinite loop of on and off, nothing will apply permanently and they all just cancel each other out.

ktom said:

Really?

Why does the attachment take precedence as the overall effect?

Bomb said:

There is a similar line of reasoning for Former Champion with one power and Shadow's Blessing attached.

ktom said:

Okay thanks! I'll keep that in mind.

I think that makes a lot more sense than just canceling both effects.

Do you happen to know if that type of scenario is pointed out in the FAQ? I see a section that contains "Infinite Loop" but it does not explain how to resolve it any more than if it leads to winning the game.

Well, the thing to keep in mind is that this isn't really an "infinite loop" the way the game defines it so much as contradictory lasting effects. They cannot both be applied (and remember that the First Player only gets to decide the order in which all contradictory passive effects are resolve - still resolving all of them).

As far as I can remember, there isn't an FAQ entry saying "contradictory lasting effects are considered to cancel each other out" so much as it is just the logical conclusion in such rare situations.

Perhaps this?

FAQ page 14:
If, at any time, two (or more) lasting effects
create an endless loop that cannot successfully
resolve itself, resolve the loop as if neither
lasting effect were occurring

The difference in our example is that they aren't necessarily lasting effects unfortunately. The effects exist based on Milk of the Poppy being attached and Leyton Hightower + Maester trait existing.

It still applies, though. You are really looking at the incompatible effects of two continuous effects. In almost all situations, "lasting effects" and "continuous effects" are effectively the same - up until the lasting effect's set endpoint. Saying that something specified for a "lasting effect" is not a good guide for handling a continuous effect is like saying nothing in the FAQ entry for "character abilities" can be applied to handling locations or attachments.

ktom said:

Alright so what is done in this situation then?

If this "endless loop" is created by Milk of the Poppy attached to The Red Viper (PotS) with a Maester trait with Leyton Hightower out, that is 3 conflicting effects that cancel each other. If you think that particular FAQ entry applies here, should we just ignore Leyton Hightower's gained ability and Milk of the Poppy as if they do not exist while they technically co-exist when it comes to TRV?

I mean, don't get me wrong, because I do agree with what you previously said, but then you said that FAQ entry applies. Or did I misunderstand?

Bomb said:

Forget Milk of the Poppy here for a minute. If TRV had the Maester trait (and nothing trying to blank him), would he get the "immunity to attachments" from Hightower? No. He would not, because TRV is immune to Hightower. The addition of Milk into this doesn't change that fundamental fact. All that Milk does is add a larger consideration in which TRV could be eligible to receive the immunity from Hightower - until he actually does. So the incompatible effects here are not really "Hightower-Milk-TRV." It is simply "Hightower-TRV" that are incompatible. Therefore, they are the ones we effectively leave out of consideration for dealing with the "Hightower-Milk-TRV" loop, leaving us with just Milk. TRV remains blank - but with the gained Maester trait.

In short: it is not Milk that closes this loop. It is the incompatibility of the two immunities. The FAQ entry tells us to resolve the loop as if the conflicting effects were not occuring, and if you resolve the loop without "gains immunity to attachments" and "immune to character abilities," you get nothing blocking Milk.

ktom said:

my head just exploded

ktom said:

Thanks for the explanation ktom, but I still don't follow. I can switch Milk with one of the other two effects and make the same argument.

Ignore "immune to character abilities" and Leyton Hightower cancels Milk.
Ignore Milk of the Poppy and "immune to character abilities" cancels Leyton Hightower.
Ignore Leyton Hightower and Milk of the Poppy cancels "immune to character abilities".

Without one existing, there would always be one canceling the other from occurring.

Honestly, the only reason I think the "immune to character abilities" effect is the only one that should exist here is because it is the only ability that was there before any other card interaction began.

It's like 3-player Rock Paper Scissors where each player chooses a different hand signal and there are no ties allowed.