AluminiumWolf said:

The Eversor isn't 'too awesome,' we just don't think it's a good fit for a PC in a group based on the existing fluff and back story.

AluminiumWolf said:

I think it's well established your version of cool diverges fairly significantly from the rest of us, even when I do agree with some of your points.

AluminiumWolf said:

Um...okay. That doesn't make them good player characters in a group. Again, if you want to play King **** of the Universe, knock yourself out. For most of the other people in the group however that will be a pretty craptastic game session as you either boss them around or outshine them at every turn with your awsome powerz. In addition, those stories are already written, which seriously handcuffs any player that likes to play within the bounds of an existing backstory.

And again, the higher the power level of the campaign, the harder they are to run and balance. I would venture a guess that most of us, while we enjoy feeling empowered when we play, also enjoy a challenge to our game, as adversity and the overcoming of it is the keystone of any good story. Again I find the use of 'god mode' as an argument against your play style- for most of us, perhaps you excluded- playing on god mode is only fun for a session or so before you get bored and go find something else to do.

AluminiumWolf said:

And here the argument takes a different turn again. Not sure this has crap all to do with an Eversor making a bad PC choice. Take gurps or the like and shove 40k into it, you'll do fine and then won't have this system to bash on.

And from Morangias, this fine point: "Can you play the Emperor? Sure, if someone's willing to run it for you. But are you playing Deathwatch then? No, you're not. So maybe stop spamming this board with your ideas that do not relate to the Deathwatch game whatsoever?"

@Morangias: You know it's hopeless, just like last time, right?

Morangias said:

Hmm, well, while it is certainly may favorite book of my 12-book collection (14 after New Years), I'd have to say no, I guess. Mostly, I'm going to hide behind the defense of "I didn't know they could somehow get a separate dodge for each star in the sky". One of the common threads around here is "how do I fit a _____ into _____", and the second space is often Deathwatch. Either someone has a female player who doesn't want to play male, and thus can't be a Space Marine, but still wants to play, or someone wants to get something else from DH, RT, or DW into whichever other game they are playing, and the case is often made that such characters usually can't compete in the next up game set. Making an Inquisitor for DW is a trying nightmare, between making a truly good "why?" for it, getting them their pricy gear, and having them be able to fight the same things Super Marines are called upon to deal with. Most anything not in DW is usually described as going down quick from anything Horde. With these thoughts, and my lack of facts, I confess, I assumed that it was the same here. If he (the Eversor) has to rush a group of Marines, and attack them with weapons that will barely breach their armor (nothing but their melta-bombs is better than pen 8 vs PA 8 or 10, with numerous non-called shots being to the body), and nothing that seems to get him more attacks (I'm overlooking his drugs, for the moment), it looks bleak to me, against guys who absorb damage like the combat fiends they are meant to be. However, if they can, somehow, get numerous dodges (without it being errata'd), constantly jump away, and get extra attacks every time they charge, then that might push it up for me. I am well aware that psykers can be a super-pest, especially if they get to keep their powers, rather than draw from DW (which I'm sure also has cool powers), but I wasn't aware that Assassins who had to stand and fight Marines would survive it.

As an aside (please don't laugh?) what is "RAW" in the case of this forum? When I use acronyms, I like to think people will get the reference, but I don't get this one, right off the bat. Also, what gets a character "dodge every attack, just cause"? With an Ag of 58, and no Un Ag, I am unclear how 14 dodges is achieved by said Eversor Assassin.

AluminiumWolf said:

venkelos said:

It's not that much of a problem considering Inquisitors have unlimited resources and access to Terminator Armor that's in all regards as good as Astartes Terminator Armor (even better, in fact, because the inquisitorial version is also warded against daemons). Give your Inquisitor some time, and he'll end up better equipped than anyone but perhaps Chapter Masters. Terminator Armor, best Craftsmanship Plasma Pistol, Best Craftsmanship force field with 50+ save, Witch Stakes, Eldar Dire Swords... If you build an Inquisitor for combat, and gear him correctly, he'll be only a few points of soak and damage behind Astartes. At the same time, his packages of Skills and his generally cheaper Advancements will make Astartes look like retards compared to him.

venkelos said:

Eversor's Neuro Gauntlet, after adding in his Strength Bonus and Crushing Blow, deals d10+10 damage, Pen 8, Tearing, Toxic. Against your average Astartes, he's doing d10 damage per attack, not accounting for Toxic, and he can perform d5 extra attacks on a Charge action due to a combat drug. Oh, and if the Astartes somehow fails one of those Toxic rolls, he's screwed, because all his Characteristics are halved for several minutes. The next Turn, he can use another drug to grant himself two Full Actions, use one to Run away (taking a hit for not disengaging is not a problem, because he used Assassin's Strike on his last attack), then the other to Hide again. Rinse, repeat. If he ever gets hurt but manages to escape, he activates a different drug to get Regeneration 4 and heal himself in the span of minutes. It's not as easy as a Vindicare picking off Battle Brothers one by one from 800m, but it's doable. Even if he can't cause TPK, something must have gone horribly wrong if at least one Marine didn't have to burn Fate.

venkelos said:

RAW means "Rules As Written", meaning no houserules are in play, and that published rules are parsed in the strictest, most literal manner possible.

No, the Eversor doesn't get 14 dodges, that's why I said several times he's strictly inferior to a Vindicare. He gets 7 dodges and one parry per round - normal + Step Aside + 5 from Agi Bonus + 1 parry from Wall of Steel. And he only dodges at 78%. That's still enough to survive a 3-4 person Kill Team in a pinch.

Morangias said:

Please tell me what book gets Inquisitor's Termie Armor? I would very much like to know. TT gives them stuff like that, and Artificer Armor, at least if they are Malleus, but my assortment of books seems to cap them off at Ignatus PA, nice armor, but also only power armor, and a type lagging behind the Astartes, while also making them easier to hit, as they lack the Black Carapace. While I knew it COULD happen, I wasn't sure how to get them DW-level gear, such as the Terminater suits. Also, I wasn't sure how they'd get all that good gear. Short of the GM giving them carte blanche to kit up as they want, they'd have to use some kind of Requisition, and even being an Inquisitor, I doubt they can just "get stuff", since they would need some appropriate Renown/Rank mechanic, while using their Influence mechanic, as from Ascension, is made difficult by every piece being -30, or more,, vs their Influence that might not be that good 50s to 60s, at best. While I know they have infinite gear pull, getting access to it can be troubling, if they are a PC. If you've used this all before, which setup did you allow, for an Inquisitor to kit up among Space Marines?

Morangias said:

Yep, I was unaware of how all the little things could pour into it, and make the Eversor, well soar. With their high armor, decent Toughness, and the Unnatural Toughness trait, I assumed that Space Marines had little to worry about from many of those things. Thank you for the details; they are very informative, and this is the best way for me to learn the stuff, at present. Good thing few Kill Teams SHOULD go wrong of an Officio Assassin.

Morangias said:

Again, thank you. As someone who liked the table top, but often thought Space Marines got all the love, it's nice to see that there are some things, even from "lesser sources" that can still give them a run for their money. I greatly appreciate your walking me through all this.

You'll find the Inquisitorial Terminator in Daemon Hunter. I recommend that book strongly, it's almost as much a Deathwatch supplement as it is a DH book (you also get a Daemon generator, up to Greater Daemons that compare quite favorably with those in Mark of Xenos, and rules for playing Grey Knights if you'd like to try a different flavor of Space Marines).

Oh, and you're much welcome. The metagame of 40k RPG is quite complex, double so when you use stuff from different systems together. I'm not by far the most savvy person around here, but I'm gladly sharing whatever I know.

Morangias said:

And that's if you only use 'standard' equipment. This also isn't counting the fact that while the eversor is a berserker, he's not stupid, and would be perfectly willing to blow the astartes up in a cluster of melta charges. In DW though, I've found that the enemies in general have to be smarter than the average zombie to do anything to a Kill Team. When they charge in like idiots, they die in the thousands. When they start to use battlefield tactics the Marines start to bleed quite a bit.

Morangias said:

Thanks for the impromptu review of the book, I'd been thinking about it since it came out. Though that Inquisitor would need that Terminator armor to survive against greater daemons, and even then, as so much does in the higher ranks, it often comes down to initiative...and luck

You can't compare the Ascension Eversor and Vindicare because one is a generic sample NPC and one has a whole series of Rank advancements, There are probably Eversors with 17 Dodges.

bogi_khaosa said:

There are also Bloodthirsters with much better stats than the profile in MoX, does this mean we can't compare the existing profile to, say, a Rank X Deathwatch Assault Marine and see what his chances are?

It's highly unlikely that we'll ever get a full advancement table for the Eversor, so we can only speculate using whatever we have available.

Morangias said:

You can do all that, but I'm just saying that the one in the book is just an example, like "a Guardsman." Is it a band-spanking new Eversor, is it a grizzled veteran of slaughterin'? No wall to tell.

If we assume it is a "Rank 1" Eversor, it would murdalize a Rank 1 Vindicare in melee combat,

Okay, so we don't like ninjas. That is fine, I guess. Takes all kinds.

But other assassins have personality to.

Ghost Dog, Leon, Wanted, Grosse Pointe Blank,The Killer. And a fairly hefty chunk of these movies involve what assassins do when they are not killing people. Eversor assassins don't do anything when they are not killing people! An Eversor won't strike up an uneasy friendship with a young girl or try to go to their high school reunion. They won't even accidentally blind a singer and take one last job to try to make amends!

I guess you could try to play an Assassin who loses his memory and tries to discover his past though.

+++++Sniper: (on phone with his father) Not a crazed gunman, dad, I'm an assassin. ... Well the difference bein', one is a job, and the other's mental sickness!+++++

Don't be silly, we like Ninjas.

The Eversor just isn't a ninja.

Man, the only movie assassin that kinda, sorta feels like an Eversor is the Terminator.

It's not about us not liking any particular trope you list. It's about us not liking those tropes when they're being shoved down the trope of someone who doesn't fit them by design.

Morangias said:

Wouldn't talents like killing strike spell instant doom to the Vindicare in melee?

Same for talents like counterattack and squad modes like Fire for effect and Strongpoint (no dodging during your turn) and the Techmarine's Servo Arm reaction attack.

+++++Man, the only movie assassin that kinda, sorta feels like an Eversor is the Terminator.+++++

Ah dude, Terminators get more and more humanised with every passing movie or TV series.

You could easily play a Terminator.

Even a Terminator who still works for the Machines could act like Agent Smith from the matrix*.

Essentially, personality free killing machines don't last past the first act. As soon as they become characters they start to form unlikely friendships with kids or learn to laugh and love. See Short Circuit or Universal Soldier or Terminators.

*'I hate this place. This zoo. This prison. This reality, whatever you want to call it, I can't stand it any longer. It's the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.'

Gokerz said:

Whether Killing Strike works is debatable, as part of the Temple Assassin trait dictates that you can dodge even those attacks that can't normally be dodged.

Other things you list pose more problems. That's why you attack from stealth and hide again as soon as possible.

AluminiumWolf said:

The Terminator. Badass killer robot from the future, not the pansies that pass as Terminators these days.

Also, "kinda, sorta". An Eversor is like a Terminator in the sense that he's an unstoppable killing machine that can't be reasoned or bargained with.

But that only carries you through one movie! What is the next one going to be about? Especially since people liked the character and want him to play more of a role.

Surely you understand the profound storytelling limitations of a character you can't talk to.

'Lives only for war' is a narrative dead end. Seriously, does the fact that no one has ever done anything interesting with it despite its obvious attraction to bad wargames fluff writers not hint that there isn't anything there?

In keeping with your very own method of answering with totally random non-sequiturs, I have to inform you that

Also, to address your concerns about popular demand, Eversor is the most popular Assassin on /tg/, exactly because he's a drug-crazed killing machine.

Seriously, man, not all characters have to have the exact same narrative potential. The Eversor is not an actor, he's a plot device.

Morangias said:

And he SHOULD be. Some things just aren't good character material, when you are a character among characters. Even in TT, these Assassins are loners, and don't work with others, whether other assassins, or lesser guys. Your average Vindicare, the only character-build one is most likely often to be a mile away from the rest of their party, waiting to take their kill shot. If he's with everyone else, he isn't doing his job, and these individuals are, more or less, a job, holding a weapon, with legs. For the others, Culexus are sinister monsters, much of the time, who would make everyone else feel cold and nauseous, hardly a team player. Any psykers in the group would be especially boned. Also, having the Untouchable trait is a big step in GMs path of saying "nope, you aren't playing this character", since it can be so unbalancing. Callidus are skinshifters, and you would never know who they really are, if, in fact their programming even leaves them with much of a core personality. They really aren't doing their job unless they are alone, infiltrating heathen cells, where their erstwhile teammates can't get to. As for the Eversor, they attack anything around them, once activated, like something Khorne would be proud to call his own.

While the Assassins are very cool, justifying any of them as characters is hard; three types are rather rare (how many Nulls can there be, and how many of them make it through the rigorous tests? How many hyper-surgeried, polymorphine-doped infiltrators are there likely to be?), and justifying them time to be a character-like individual, when there are so many potential missions to do is tough, and even the Vindicare, who are only exceptionally accurate marksmen (if you want to shortchange them that much) seem sometimes out of place as a character. Most of these are better left to the GM, to harrass the characters, or to give them some extra edge to request, if something is going to be especially tough.

Rarity shouldn't matter. If everyone wants to play an untouchable, congratulations, you have just met Team Zero, the Imperiums only all untouchable strike force (although Eisenhorn had a whole organisation of presumably female untouchables called The Distaff). This isn't an MMO with thousands of players. There are just four-ish so everyone can be a hero.

+++++Also, to address your concerns about popular demand, Eversor is the most popular Assassin on /tg/, exactly because he's a drug-crazed killing machine.+++++

Honestly I'd rather have lines of novels and games and whatnot than memes about kool-aid ninjas that you ultimately can't do anything with.

+++++The Eversor is not an actor, he's a plot device.+++++

I think it is dumb as a bag of hammers to have the character that many people are going to gravitate towards (hardest fighter in a fighty setting) to be NPC only.

Dumb As A Bag Of Hammers.

Let me put it this way.

It would be a devastating move on GW's behalf if they made the Assassins too "playable". Why? Because they'd steal the spotlight from Space Marines, and Space Marines are 40k's main sales pitch. And it's not like they could make a whole army list out of Assassins instead, because GW's main target (i.e. boys between 12 and 18) are well aware of the Conservation of Ninjutsu and thus would find the concept of such an army dumb. If it can't be made into a separate army list, it's not profitable for GW to focus on it in any manner. Making Assassins into detached, barely human bogeymen that only the highest echelons of the Imperium can call upon, and even then only reluctantly, is the reasonable compromise - it makes Assassins interesting enough to sell some miniatures, but tempers their awesomeness so that they don't detract from the sales of more profitable kits.

Other media have nothing on GW, because all the extensive licensing they do is just a marketing ploy to sell more miniatures - the only significant source of income the company has. Focusing so much effort in the licensed "merchandise" on Space Marines creates an infinite popularity loop - more people are willing to buy Space Marines merchandise, and all the merchandise makes Space Marines even more popular. By contrast, any merchandise focused on the Officio is only going to be appreciated by a small group of people deeply entrenched in 40k lore, and those people are less likely to buy more Assassins kits due to the merchandise.

Hence, the very rules of marketing that you so eagerly call out disprove your pet theory. "Mindless berserker who only lives for war", or whatever other creative name we choose to call the Eversor, isn't a narrative crutch created by talentless hacks, it's a product of a well thought out marketing strategy.

Morangias said:

I know. But if you have those two abilities going against each other, with one of them saying it works every time and costing a fatepoint, and the other one saying there are things it fails against and costing nothing... I'd say the question becomes "how much of an ******* is the DM?", not "what do the RAW say?".

The Pack Tactics squad mode is more open to interpretations that favor the Vindicare, but otherwise can screw him over just as much.

Whether good old feint works is something they should really have cleared up in the Ascension book.

Morangias said:

Would that really help?

Vindicare hides. Vindicare comes out of stealth to shoot/charge. Vindicare gets Fire for Effect'ed / Strongpoint'ed to death before he can re-hide.

If, like in your example, the Vindicare actually decides to charge into melee to show how he can solo a kill team with just a knife he is in even more problems, as talents like counter strike and especially squad modes like Shield and Sword and Counter-Charge can't be defended against with stealth.

Gokerz said:

To a certain extent, it is 'how much of an assholed the GM is', however it also depends on where the Assassin sits- is it a PC or is it an NPC? If an NPC is it an ally or an enemy? If it's an NPC, sure, allow Killing Strike to work. If it's a PC...well...that's still kind of lame as only characters with touched by the fates have a regular chance at hurting the player's character, and you're still in a sore spot where they're OP'd in comparison to other characters. There is a problem in the root of the magic dodge system- between the 'dodge anything at the GM's discretion' and 'combined with Unnatural Agility' things can get out of hand.

Another solution, as opposed to the suggestion from Morangias's '50% dodge as a force field' style, might be to make the dodges number only up to the base agility bonus. For a talented Vindicare this would still be 7, which would definitely require groups to take it down, meaning it would still be potent as hell against elites and boss style enemies, but it would cut the number in half, which might *help* if not solve.

Gokerz said:

Yes, they can be defended against with stealth, maybe not if you're standing in front, but if you're smart they can. You don't shoot the Marine in the face if he's set up overwatch. You move around and shoot him in the back of the head, hide, and move again. You stay out of his kill zones, and with the rifle you can stay out of range as well. It's going to be a debate as to whether or not firing that rifle would break concealment- I'd imagine it would be at least as quiet as the stalker bolter but they didn't really flesh out the rules much in the book where it's described, so it's up to again, the GM. But if you fire a weapon that has no chance to be detected, the only way you're going to be able to pinpoint the shooter is by looking at the injury that you just got. If the Vindicare is smart, he'll be displacing like a mad man and hitting the team from all kinds of angles, and using specialty ammo which means he can probably take out a couple of marines with single shots. And if you read the rules that no matter what shooting breaks concealment, then the Vindicare should be smart and shoot from cover, which means even whin the KT does hit him he will get another 16+ points of armor to help him soak.

If he's going in with a knife, again, you come up out of the kill zone, out of the line of sight of the marines, and hit them with a surprise action where they get no reaction and no counter move. They're flat footed, and in fact the Assassin would probably get a fat +30 to hit them because of it. Stab, hide. Move while hidden. Stab, hide. Move while hidden.

@Wolf: You just like to push Morangias' buttons, I can't imagine that you actually think that every character created by any author must be a well thought out thinking being that has a detailed backstory and full playability within any given RPG system. You know full well that worlds, stories, novels, books, games, and everything else do not get created that way. Good luck with your trolling.

This is all assuming that the Vindicare is not 300+m away with his Exitus rifle whose shot can't really be seen by people. Marine weapons tend not to have ranges to account for that. The Vindicare will take careful aim, probably hit and get no response in kind unless the team has lascannons, or missile launchers.