Charmander said:

Sure, that works. But now you have moved far away from the example of "lone vindicare charges into killteam and kills them all with a knife", which I is what I was answering to.

Charmander said:

Between five marines and Overwatch, there isn't a single point that's "out of the line of sight" and yet allows you to charge them.

After the first time you do this you also enter combat time, so no more suprise rounds, and still overlapping fields of overwatch.

(Still, please don't let us argue about well played vindicare using his abilities to the max vs. well played Kill Team using their abilities to the max. There are too many factors and I really just wanted to answer that 'lone berserker vindicare with a knife' scenario. I definitely think the Temple Assassin / vindicare is overpowered, I just thought that specifc scenario was a bit too hyperbolic)

Also, while you can't dodge/parry during when surprised, you still get reactions (though possibly only outside that surprise round, which only happens once anyway). Fire fo Effect for example seems to be specifically aimed at allowing you to shoot people trying that surprise tactic on you. Sword and Shield and Counter-Charge also don't seem to care whether you saw the attack/charge coming.

Charmander said:

I do think people could put a little more effort in.

Like I say, have you tried to read a Halo novel? Spartans are the least interesting characters ever created. They have almost as little internal life as Eversors.

And having one of things. One girl in all the world is a slayer really made Buffy RPGs difficult. As did having no other Jedi than Luke in Star Wars.

Similarly Jedi not having a social life. 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me' gives so much more potential. Jediness runs in families, with all the potential stories that entails.

Look, I'm a roleplayer, and I like Merch. I find it really irritating when people cut off potential for future material by writing stupid **** without thinking.

And some people do consider this. If you read Star Trek makers interviews they will often talk about doing things a certain way to avoid potential problems in the future. Something like 'we have him say 'Matching warp velocities for transport!' in case we want allow or block warp speed transport in a future episode'.

So I do think in general it is a good idea to think about how you will use characters in future and try to maximise your options, especially if you are trying for a 'media property' with potential for spin off material.

And with So Much material out there for assassins, it was Dumb As A Bag Of Hammers to write Eversors as being devoid of personality.

--

Cause as it is, who cares if an Eversor could fight a Demon Prince? You are never going to get to play one.

Gokerz said:

Fair enough.

Gokerz said:

I'll have to re-read those sections there when I get a chance. I must admit my KT is lame and uses the same couple of powers over and over, so I've not read all the other ones in as much detail as I should have. With surprise you lose your turn, and I'd always been reading that as you lost everything on your turn, as one block of text read 'they can do nothing but stand dumbfounded whilist their opponents fall upon them,' meaning you don't get to do anything until the next turn.

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't disagree, I just think we both know that some 'characters' written as automatons are perfectly fine as automatons, and provided they fit in whatever sotry they're supposed to be in leave them there.

AluminiumWolf said:

I hate to say it, but the majority of Sci-Fi out there, particularly novels, is garbage, so I have to say no. I have a suspicion that the Spartans aren't uninteresting because of fictional backstory, but rather author's ability, though that's conjecture. But anyhow so what if they're uninteresting? Then don't play one.

AluminiumWolf said:

To a certain extent I agree there, but this ties right back into your prior arguments where you talk about playing the Emperor or Jesus and blows them up. Guess what, there is only one Emperor and only one Jesus. Now what are you going to do? I guess you should stop playing 40k because you can't play TEH BESTESZ. But you know what, in this setting, in this game (like most RPGs) you can play something else in a game that's full of other something elses and there is a semblance of balance so that each player gets their chance to shine in a story.

AluminiumWolf said:

But that's only ONE avenue of storytelling, and based on your Space Marines and sex posts I see where you're going with this, but the story of a chaste, devout monk is one that can still be quite interesting. Especially with a Jedi, where the act of trying to be a good Jedi is a constant struggle for many. Lineage is only one facet to a story and isn't required for a story to be interested.

And dude, if these things go against your view of what is cool or fun, then the stories you're looking for aren't written for you. I can look at other fiction and go "I wish they did X, Y, or Z" but they don't, which means I move off of that story and move onto the next. I can wish for all the world that every novel or game was written for me, but that is never ever going to happen. If you want Eversors in your game, cool, go into the HR forum and write them up, but that's not part of the existing fiction, and most of us are okay with that.

AluminiumWolf said:

But that's all in the eye of the beholder dude, most of us aren't terribly concerned about this, and don't find the backstory of the Eversor stupid, as you can see by your minority status in this thread. And what future material are they cutting off? I would challenge you to produce a scrap of evidence that the game sales have been hurt because Eversors are not playable characters as per RAW.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well, you win, you got me to respond again, I hope you're happy!

1. Eversors are not devoid of personality

2. Eversors are not devoid of intresting story hooks

3. Eversors are not the end all be all of assassins, they are not the fightiest of the fighty in a fighty setting

We're just saying they would make bad player characters, primarily because in a group setting, having someone that operates alone is lame, and additionally having someone that sleeps in their off time is lame. It's like playing a Vampire with a bunch of guys that like to hang out on the beach during the day. You're out of action for half the adventure. Just because something doesn't make for an interesting player character in a role playing game doesn't make it a bad character or unfitting for the setting.

And to be honest, I find in my experience the guy in the RPG that wants to play something that isn't mainstream is spotlight hog. There are expections to this, particularly with females playing in a SM game and the whole man/woman thing and comfort levels playing a different gender, but for the most part, the guy that comes in and says "Can I play an Eversor in your Space Marine game" is looking to outshine your other players and take the spotlight away.

+++++I hate to say it, but the majority of Sci-Fi out there, particularly novels, is garbage+++++

Yeah, but there is garbage and then there is garbage. Dan Abnetts 40k work isn't exactly going to win literary awards but it is pretty good adventure fiction. But I like Sci-Fi, and given that it is supposed to be cool I am irritated when it turns out less cool than other genres because of easily avoided mistakes.

+++++I can look at other fiction and go "I wish they did X, Y, or Z" but they don't, which means I move off of that story and move onto the next.+++++

Ah, I have been in to 40k for like 20 years. I'm not walking away now.

+++++And what future material are they cutting off? I would challenge you to produce a scrap of evidence that the game sales have been hurt because Eversors are not playable characters as per RAW.+++ ++

I dunno. I reckon a game called Assassin: The Assassinating where you play a special strike team of assassins who take down those targets that are to tough for any one assassin to assassinate would be pretty cool. And I'd buy assassin novels. And I play a lot of ninja video games.

Like I say, and Assassins Creed clone in 40k would be awesome.

So I do think a book called Assassin! with an Eversor on the cover would be a good seller. Do you really disagree?

+++++2. Eversors are not devoid of intresting story hooks+++++

Then just how do you see a three book series entitled Eversor Tales with an Eversor on the cover as going?

+++++3. Eversors are not the end all be all of assassins, they are not the fightiest of the fighty in a fighty setting+++++

He is the fightiest Imperium character though isn't he?

+++++We're just saying they would make bad player characters, primarily because in a group setting, having someone that operates alone is lame, and additionally having someone that sleeps in their off time is lame.+++++

I don't disagree. I just think it was dumb to write the character like that in the first place.

And people have argued that Space Marines don't/shouldn't have enough personality to be playable. They were wrong about that...

AluminiumWolf said:

But 40k is huge, can't you just move onto the next character or expereince?

AluminiumWolf said:

And he's cool, but TBH the Creed guys fit in with other Assassins pretty well. I don't disagree that a cabal or what not of Assassins could be kind of cool, but just because the Eversor takes a back seat in a group setting doesn't seem to me to be that disruptive.

AluminiumWolf said:

Are you talking RPG or Novel? Either way it would sell, but if you also put a Vindicare on the cover it would sell as well. I don't think anyone shot anything in the foot because they couldn't make a book called EVERSOR Assassin!

AluminiumWolf said:

Oh now we have it, it has to be a three book series of the continuing adventures of Captain Fighty McFightyson, the Eversor with a Heart of Gold? As stated numerous times above, the way most of us understand them is that they're thinking, feeling beings, however they're hopped up on drugs and addicted to them. The internal conflict could make for an interesting story. The description of uploading the data to an Eversor and thawing one out could take a chapter unto itself if done arfully. His deployment, his conscious mind versus his unconscious, his addiction to the rush of the kill, the fallout from the brutal way in which he killed the 'bad guys', what their response was to his methods. The story doesn't have to be plesant, it doesn't have to portray him as the hero, and it doesn't have to focus on him the whole time. But if you want 3 books, have it involve a kid, preferably a loveable scamp, that needs protecting and a mom that knows how to reprogram his brain. They work together to get him off his drug addiction, and he learns to love again, and ends the first book by kicking Dolph Lundgren on a hay baler.

AluminiumWolf said:

What about the Vindicare (or callidus or the others)? What about Space Marines? What about the Grey Knights? I think you need a shared/common definition of fightiest.

AluminiumWolf said:

So having characters that are loners that don't play well with others is not a good idea? Literature has several examples of these, and they don't make bad characters, they just make bad PCs. It doesn't make them dumb, and besides, it really fits well if you're playing TT, which is half of the point of GW's thing. As others have said, part of his coolness to many comes from him being what he is. It's really cool that when he dies he blows up like a plasma grenade, but that makes for a pretty lame ending for a PC when everyone else just burns fate.

+++++What about the Vindicare (or callidus or the others)? What about Space Marines? What about the Grey Knights? I think you need a shared/common definition of fightiest.+++++

Melee combatant.

+++++So having characters that are loners that don't play well with others is not a good idea?+++++

By and large it is something to be avoided.

Certainly in an RPG such a character is death, but even more broadly loners in fiction more or less have to start forming attachments if they are in any way a focus character. How often does a character that starts a story as a loner end it as a loner?

It is, I would submit, far better to focus on creating interesting dynamics between characters, ESPECIALLY if you are creating a type of character you are likely to want to use more than one of. One eversor learning to love is okay, but when every Eversor has to do it it becomes a little silly.

--

Look, the Terminator is a terrible character to want to emulate, especially since his one movie has already been made.

Sure, the Matrix has Jesus/Neo, but it is still a pretty good model. You have the agents, who are still menacing but have enough personality to be characters:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWniGK-5wkE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHiX0FZcjkA

You have the scene where all the hovership captains meet in the matrix, and you know that they all have stories to tell. There is a lot of room in the Matrix for telling additional stories. If the second and third movies had been better it would have had real legs.

AluminiumWolf said:

I think one could argue the Callidus is as skilled or more to the Eversor, based on fluff. And they fit in the sterotypical role of assassin better than the eversor as well, and could fit your Assassin's Creed style game more easily.

AluminiumWolf said:

I would argue that it's not the attachments that make the character interesting, it's the evolution of the character that is interesting. Characters in the background tend to remain static, and the character in the foreground is the one that adapts, changes, grows. It's the dynamism of the main character is what draws people in- or at the very least a realization as to why the character remained static. At the heart I think we agree though- static characters that never change how they act get dull.

AluminiumWolf said:

I don't see why not, for NPCs or support people. It helps hammer home the giant opressive regime the Empire represents. Like the Necrons, I find them terribly dull if I were to play them, but they do make for an interesting adversary. And the Tyranids- totally unplayable, but a great bad guy.

AluminiumWolf said:

What do the ship captains have to do with telling additional stories? About the agents, or about something else? Of course the captains had things to tell. Space Marines all have stories to tell as well, in fact you end up playing one of them in Deathwatch.

If it's about the agents, I disagree. There was a single agent that had personality, and it was implied heavily in the first one he was a breakaway, he was different, to be confirmed in the second and third movies. The others were automatons. To make a compelling character from them, all of them would have to be like the breakaway mutant, which, as you say above, breaks down when all the characters have to learn to be different (all the Eversors learning to love).

+++++At the heart I think we agree though- static characters that never change how they act get dull.+++++

Robin Laws argues there are two types of hero:-

+++++A dramatic hero follows a character arc in which he is changed by his experience of the world. Examples: Orpheus, King Lear, Ben Braddock. An iconic hero undertakes tasks (often serially) and changes the world, restoring order to it, by remaining true to his essential self. Examples: Beowulf, Sherlock Holmes, Batman.+++++

So I think as much as anything I'm arguing that Eversors make terrible Iconic heros. To be a character an Eversor has to stop being an Eversor and become something else. Stories about Eversors being Eversors and restoring order to the world by being Eversors would be difficult to do.

+++++Like the Necrons, I find them terribly dull if I were to play them, but they do make for an interesting adversary.+++++

Well they just retconned the Necrons to have more personality to make them more attractive to the people who play them...

+++++If it's about the agents, I disagree. There was a single agent that had personality, and it was implied heavily in the first one he was a breakaway, he was different, to be confirmed in the second and third movies. The others were automatons.+++++

I must remind you of the end of The Matrix, where two non-Smith agents see that Neo has gained much more control of the Matrix, look at each other... and make a run for it.

Also in that ...hmm. upgrades... clip the agents talk to each other a bit ('he is still... only human'). This shows some internal life. And there are other programs with fully formed personalities.

AluminiumWolf said:

How about Mephiston, then? In TT, he can **** all but about three characters with impunity.

Or perhaps Kaldor "Marty Stu" Draigo?

These are combatants so potent that some people ragequit rather than play against them. No such thing happens with Eversors, who tend to get killed before they ever enter CC.

Or hell, just Callidus - same melee stats, but a much better weapon. Plus, the stealthiest of assassins.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well to that I agree- they make great TT characters and their backstory is pretty fun for a wargame. But I still would say that with the right author, a character study into a tortured, addicted, violent mind could be a fun trip. The fact that he's blowing up villages could be quite secondary, the key and the interest is how his mind grapples with his current state. Now that's not enough to make a trilogy out of, but character studies don't make for that type of fiction. And this whole time no one has said it would be an easy story- it's dark and would be filled with a lot of heavy stuff if it were to be good.

AluminiumWolf said:

Tha doesn't indicate they have a personality to me, that says they have just figured out that their pal just got deleted and charging Neo in a rage is not a good plan. And to me it was really just to show how badass Neo is that he can not beat and intimidate the previously unkillable Agents. (Congratulations Wachowski brothers, good luck solving the Superman Problem in your sequels!)

And to me, "Upgrades" doesn't really show 'internal' life any more than a Tyranid morphing into something else to adapt to the weapons of its killer. That's hive mind, and is scary on a different level, but doesn't make a heroic character, or a playable one.

And honestly, "He's still only human" could've been as much for comic relief as anything else, as they used goddamn bowling and domino sound effects in the giant park fight. Really? Might as well have gone 'wakka wakk!' Matrix two and three sucked, and that is not opinion, that is fact

+++++Matrix two and three sucked, and that is not opinion, that is fact +++++

Oh, I agree, but the first was great. And Neo aside they did a good job of leaving room for other stories and whatnot. I really liked the Enter the Matrix game and the series of animated shorts they did. And Neil Gaimen wrote a story for it.

http://www.voidspace.org.uk/cyberpunk/goliath.shtml

If Reloaded and Revolutions had been any good we might all be playing Matrix games! (I've heard it said that Star Wars was good, but it was Empire also being excellent that really solidified it as a cultural phenomenon. I am inclined to agree).

+++++How about Mephiston, then? In TT, he can **** all but about three characters with impunity.

Or perhaps Kaldor "Marty Stu" Draigo?

These are combatants so potent that some people ragequit rather than play against them. No such thing happens with Eversors, who tend to get killed before they ever enter CC.

Or hell, just Callidus - same melee stats, but a much better weapon. Plus, the stealthiest of assassins.+++++

Well all right. But those are special characters with names. We can only dream of what a named Assassin would be capable of! (the Inquisitor game featured a Callidus on hyper-polymorphine who could stretch like Mr. Fantastic for instance). And Callidus are all chicks. :0)

AluminiumWolf said:

So? They're Space Marines (well, at least Kaldor sure is, with Mephiston it's... complicated), which means Astartes can reach this level of badassery. And considering the kind of stuff high Rank DW characters can do, it's not that far from those guys already.

It would really help if the Temple Assassin trait in RPG worked more like in TT, i.e. giving them a flat 50/50 chance of surviving anything, akin to a field that doesn't overload, rather than them being virtually impervious to multiple attacks per round due to having a bazillion Reactions, but that's a matter of screwed up mechanics, not one of fluff.

AluminiumWolf said:

According to Lexicanum :

Polymorphine works better with women, and therefore the vast majority of the temple operatives are female.

"Vast majority" != all.

EDIT: Also, it seems in the face of our insistence that you can indeed write an interesting book about an Eversor, you have shifted goalposts again and now demand that a trilogy be possible. Well, screw that noise. If the number of sequels and/or retellings measures the quality of the story, then clearly a romance of a suburban housewife with an exotic prince is the greatest story ever devised by humanity.

Most of the best stories never get the sequel, and many of them are the best exactly because their structure precludes the possibility of a sequel. Some great characters were ruined because some idiot wanted to squeeze more money out of them and made a sequel anyway - Rambo, for example. Did you know he originally died in the novel?

+++++a flat 50/50 chance of surviving anything+++++

Incidentally, it feels like this should scale with experience. Would a 1/2 dodge skill dodge against all attacks work?

+++++"Vast majority" != all.+++++

Okay, but everyone is still gonna male callidus are a bit weird.

+++++If the number of sequels and/or retellings measures the quality of the story, then clearly a romance of a suburban housewife with an exotic prince is the greatest story ever devised by humanity.+++++

Hey, like I say, Black Library is Mils & Boon for men. And apparently M&B are doing very well on kindle as people can now read them in public without being embarresed.

(Hmm. I just got a kindle. Maybe I should start reading BL books on it. I don't mind reading them on trains, but I did feel looked down on when my aunt saw my copy of Conquest of Armaggedon.)

So I dunno. It is true that sometimes a short story is enough, but I also think it is true that GW values stuff they can turn in to series more.

AluminiumWolf said:

And if we were, you can bet that you could not play Neo or an Agent.

AluminiumWolf said:

I'd be inclined to agree if I hadn't witnessed first hand the ridiculosity of being able to dodge at such a high rate. It becomes silly, and frustrates both the GM and the other players.

I'd think if you gave the character their base dodges (which would probably be two if they have step aside) at full, then say anything after that is 50%, you'd have a solid, non-over the top superpower. This is an improvement in that it is essentially unlimited (versus the extremely high 14+ the Vindicare gets), but a reduction because it's only 50%. It would also make, I thnk, characters/players a little more cautious when playing them, and play them to be assassins rather than front line troops (which the power level of them tempts many people to do). In addition, the 50% is something others can attain in other ways, making the top tierd combatants a little more balanced out as well. I'd love to hear the results of a playtest, personally.

AluminiumWolf said:

At least we wouldn't see the 300 page threads on FSMs with that!

And anyone wanting to play a callidus in a DW game should be excited to play it as a dude, it would make them more 'special' to be different within the different.

AluminiumWolf said:

It would be better (in the sense of balance) than what we have now. Making it a field save roll rather than a dodge roll would be vastly better, though, as it prevents players from layering actual force fields on top of them dodging everything. Which can get extremely broken double quick.

AluminiumWolf said:

Why is it weird? No rule or fluff precludes this from happening. And it's not like it makes much difference with Callidus being shapeshifters.

If you can't get past the miniature having boobs, it's not even being a canon nazi, it's just being silly.

Oh, and I just remembered: when the Emprah wanted Night Haunter dead, he gave the task to Callidus Temple. Clearly they are the ultimate ninjas if the Emperor himself chose them to assassinate a gorram Primarch.